Rifles in the rain *important*

Couple things I do in wet weather while hunting. First off is tape the barrel as others have stated. It has zero affect on your POI. When you tape your barrel you form a cylinder of air between your bullet and the tape. When you fire, the air blows the tape off long before your bullet passes anywhere near it. Second thing is running a dry patch through. While I don't clean my gun at all during hunting season as I don't want to have to go shoot foulers, I will run dry patches every night if it was used hunting in a wet day. I have found running a dry patch through removes any debris (once had pine needles in the barrel?!, and dries everything out when raining without affecting my POI. Then it's set for the next day.

I shot the Snipers Hide Cup this year, and we had RAIN for all of the first day. Monsoon rain. You couldn't even lase a target at 100 yards. My gun was soaked without any tape, and we have to leave the bolts back to show the weapon as clear unless you are shooting. It was approximately 30 minutes from shooting, to the next time you shoot. I never missed any first round hits due to anything except wind, and some are over 1k. I shot pretty well. And there was a lot of carbon and gunk as I went 500 rounds before cleaning with that particular rifle.

I am definitely curious about the cause, as I had no effects during my match. I wonder if some powders are more susceptible than others? Perhaps some powders "swell" with moisture? And any unburnt powder in the barrel swells?
 
OK, I managed to get the article from my buddy. VERY interesting! I hope you can read it? This still does not explain why my rifle did not come back to zero after the first shot though.........Rich
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PUBLISHER'S EDIT:

I HAVE COPY/PASTED THE GUTS OF THE SIERRA BULLETS TEST HERE TO MAKE IT EASIER TO READ

To test my theory, I loaded nine rounds of 308 Winchester ammunition. I utilized the 165 grain SBT bullet (#2145) and enough Accurate 2495 powder to shoot well (approximately 38 grains).* I then utilized a fouled 308 Winchester barreled action in one of our return-to-battery machine rests for the evaluation. This testing was conducted at 200 yards.

I fired three shots and documented the velocity at 2378 fps. I then fired three more shots but before each shot I placed a piece of electricians tape over the muzzle, this would effectively keep any water out of the barrel if placed properly. There was no accuracy or velocity change with the electricians tape in use as you can see.

dipping_barrel_in_water.jpg


I had my right hand man in all things bullet related, Tony, dip the muzzle of the test rifle into a bucket of water before each of the next three shots.**

Shooting with the last eight inches or so of bore wet reduced the velocity of this load by 47 fps. As you can see from the target results below, you don't want any water in your barrel if you intend to hit what you're aiming at. I believe I found the reason that antelope doe escaped my efforts to transform her into table-fare.

200 yard test target

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Click to expand...
 
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Is your rifle in a wood stock or synthetic? If wood, some minute swelling had to of taken place, affecting barrel harmonics?
 
We have tried just about every reasonable possible solution to wet and dirty conditions that you could imagine due to the fact that when we leave a trail head you better have the solution with you for a 7-10 day outing. I've been taping my barrel for longer than most guys age on this forum - no problems with accuracy or pressure.

Here is what a little company here in Montana came up with when presented with this problem to solve. It is a water proof sleeve that covers from tip of barrel to pistol grip.
My 2nd son is very good friends with the owner who is an avid outdoorsman that has been there - done that.

https://www.rapidriflecovers.com/products/rifle-sleeve

My son had him make the first one and his does not have a handle. I would not want a handle after using his for being in the backcountry for extended periods of time. When we are packing meat or headed to the wall tent after dark he just puts his rifle in his waterproof sleeve, straps it to his pack and off he goes. Barreled action and scope are completely protected from rain, snow etc. That sleeve can't weigh but a couple of ounces.

I am no way affiliated with this product or company.

I have tested the wet barrel problem at the rifle range. Conclusion was that water in a barrel has/can have drastic effects on accuracy. The longer the water was in the barrel the more problematic. I've got an engineering degree and can not tell you what happens but I can tell you that accuracy goes south and will do anything to keep moisture out of my barreled action and ammo - period.
 
cowboy said:
We have tried just about every reasonable possible solution to wet and dirty conditions that you could imagine due to the fact that when we leave a trail head you better have the solution with you for a 7-10 day outing. I've been taping my barrel for longer than most guys age on this forum - no problems with accuracy or pressure.

Here is what a little company here in Montana came up with when presented with this problem to solve. It is a water proof sleeve that covers from tip of barrel to pistol grip.
My 2nd son is very good friends with the owner who is an avid outdoorsman that has been there - done that.

https://www.rapidriflecovers.com/products/rifle-sleeve

My son had him make the first one and his does not have a handle. I would not want a handle after using his for being in the backcountry for extended periods of time. When we are packing meat or headed to the wall tent after dark he just puts his rifle in his waterproof sleeve, straps it to his pack and off he goes. Barreled action and scope are completely protected from rain, snow etc. That sleeve can't weigh but a couple of ounces.

I am no way affiliated with this product or company.

I have tested the wet barrel problem at the rifle range. Conclusion was that water in a barrel has/can have drastic effects on accuracy. The longer the water was in the barrel the more problematic. I've got an engineering degree and can not tell you what happens but I can tell you that accuracy goes south and will do anything to keep moisture out of my barreled action and ammo - period.
Click to expand...

That is great info Cowboy! It seems to fit my situation perfectly. I always knew that moisture in a rifle was no good, but when you miss a chip shot on a nice bull, it really hits home.......thanks........Rich
 
If there is any significant amount of water in the barrel I'd think that could affect at least the first shot. Water is very heavy compared to air. A bullet hitting water in the barrel at high speed can't be good. It won't be hard to get 10+ grains of water in the barrel. That's a significant portion of bullet weight.

A fighter plane slices thru air at speeds comparable to a rifle bullet. The same plane hitting water at that speed might as well hit solid concrete or a granite mountain.

As another example try hitting a 5 gallon bucket of water with your car at 100 mph. Not good.

It might even be that water in the barrel would deform the bullet just like 5 gallons of water could badly deform your car.
 
Varminator 911 said:
If there is any significant amount of water in the barrel I'd think that could affect at least the first shot. Water is very heavy compared to air. A bullet hitting water in the barrel at high speed can't be good.
Click to expand...

I had the exact same opinion as you have stated above - until I tested that theory. It not only effected the first shot, but the second and third shots - I quit testing after 3 rounds, thoroughly cleaned and dried the barrel and it went right back to it's original accuracy. Thought it might be this particular rifle barrel combination so I repeated the test with another rifle with known accuracy. Very similar results.

Only difference was the larger caliber seemed to be more affected than the lighter caliber - but who knows if this one instance has any validity to it. I would encourage anyone that doesn't use some kind of barrel protection to test it out for yourself.

All I do know is that "anything" in a barrel is bad voo doo - and water is one.
 
cowboy said:
I had the exact same opinion as you have stated above - until I tested that theory. It not only effected the first shot, but the second and third shots - I quit testing after 3 rounds, thoroughly cleaned and dried the barrel and it went right back to it's original accuracy. Thought it might be this particular rifle barrel combination so I repeated the test with another rifle with known accuracy. Very similar results.

Only difference was the larger caliber seemed to be more affected than the lighter caliber - but who knows if this one instance has any validity to it. I would encourage anyone that doesn't use some kind of barrel protection to test it out for yourself.

All I do know is that "anything" in a barrel is bad voo doo - and water is one.
Click to expand...

The biggest revelation to me on this is the fact that you also fired multiple shots and it would not zero until thoroughly cleaned! That was the biggest puzzle to me. I still think the water may expand the carbon deposits, or something to that effect?. Thanks again......Rich
 
elkaholic said:
We have gotten some ideas on how to keep the water out, which helps, but I was hoping for some in depth discussion on just exactly WHAT takes place when the water is present (which it will be)! I need someone a LOT smarter than me to explain some things. Is it a change in bore diameter causing issues? Is the diameter an effect of water, or water plus deposits? Is there a chemical reaction that takes place between the water and other chemicals present? Does it cause expansion in a slight carbon ring that may be present in the throat causing problems? How much can pressure be raised? Why does the first shot not clean everything out and get the poi back to zero? These things, and other possibilities, are what I would like to get a handle on..........Rich
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My experiences shooting in the rain tell me several things go on.

First, remember that water is not a lubricant for metal especially under high pressure, if anything it leads to galling.

Second, in creating resistance it can create increased pressure as the bullet goes down the tube.

Third, I first noticed this shooting the .17 Rem when I was young and later saw it to an even greater degree with the .204 shooting both coyotes and PD's that in heavy rain sometimes the bullets seemed to be breaking up or otherwise petering out on targets more than 200yds away.

Didn't seem to be much of a problem in light mist but in a real live rain it just did wierd things down range.

In years gone by I always used a product called LPS lubricants, they made four of them (spray lubes) that ranged from a very light penetrating oil to the next not so thin and really good as a preservative. LPS3 was like a spray on grease.

We used to hunt with blued CM factory barrels and taking a suggestion from a shooter I respected quite a bit started leaving just a thin film of the LPS2 in the bore following a hunt. We'd just patch through with some 90% Isopropyl Alcohol to remove any moisture that got in the bore and wipe down the outside with the same and then spray a light coat on the exterior and a short burst in the bore. We'd let it set a few minutes and then just wipe off the excess on the outside and run a dry patch through the barrel to remove the excess from the bore.

In later years I started doing the same thing with "Machinegunner's Lube" which has become my primary lubricant and protectant for all of my weapons.

Anything from the finger of a surgical glove to saran wrap will keep moisture from getting in the barrel end and keeping the breech closed keeps it from getting inside from the bolt area as long as you carry your rifle barrel up.

As for what some are seeing after firing a wet barrel and it being harder to clean yes, I think that the moisture combined with the heating makes for more copper and powder fouling than usual and it's tougher to get out as it seems to help to bond it to the bore.
 
phorwath said:
I've always taped my muzzle with 3M electrical tape. 2 layers over the bore and one around the diameter to secure the 4 ends. It's too light to affect barrel harmonics and it blows off before the bullet makes contact, in my opinion. If I have plenty of time I'll remove before the shot, but only so I can reuse the tape. I tape to keep out debris and foreign objects as much as water. That's where I'd start, because it's so simple and much easier than the answers to the many other bore affecting possibilities.

My speculation is that after your first shot, the bore itself is no longer affecting POI. if the chamber is still wet, you'll experience greater bolt thrust, and that could affect POIs. The chamber will remain wet, and the shells in the mag are also apt to be wet when chambered. I suggest shooting a group with water wetted cartridges. Your bolt may get sticky if you're running ragged edge pressures with a dry chamber and dry cartridges. But it shouldn't be any different than the shot at the bull.

Can't think of anything else on a rifle with a free floated barrel properly bedded in a synthetic stock, at least after the first shot. Wood stocks can be very problematic wet/soaked versus dry. Even when free floated, I've had wet wooden stocks warp until they contact the barrel and destroy my sight-in POIs. That sucks... When it happens during a hunt.

This possibility hasn't been field tested/proven. But I doubt competitive shooters like to chamber a round with a wetted chamber after they've zeroed on a dry chamber.
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The easy way around the wood warping is to pull them out several times through the year and oil them well. That has always for me at least seemed to keep them consistent. All my "woodys" today are laminates so it's even less of an issue but I still am stuck in the habit of doing it.
 
Thanks for all the input guys! From the discussion, and personal experiences, I think we can conclude that water is definitely a problem and affects accuracy. It also seems that water in conjunction with deposits is an even worse problem that can't be simply shot out of the barrel. (at least not with 2 or 3 shots). I suspect that there have been a lot more misses at long range that were caused by this than people were aware of and just passed them off as something else. I also think that water leaking into the chamber around the action is probably nearly as bad. I don't like cleaning a barrel while I am hunting but I will likely pay a lot more attention to keeping things as dry as possible and will probably run an alcohol patch through the bore and chamber under the conditions I encountered this year. I may try testing the affect of this on poi when the weather gets better. We go to great lengths to get the best equipment and develop the best techniques, etc. for long range, and yet this seems to be a potentially serious issue that may be largely overlooked. Even with the bore and action covered, I suspect the condensation that takes place over a week of constant wet weather is a potential accuracy problem when it combines with the deposits already in the barrel...........Rich
 
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