Reloder 26

[ctw]

I did load development for my .30-378 weatherby mag. using rl26 with 2 different bullets, one being the 185 gr. classic hunter, and the other one was the 180 gr. nosler balistic tip. I should have posted this sooner as my load development took place back in October 2017. I should thank a couple of you guys on here for giving me some place to start with my load development, as I literally had no idea where to begin. So a big thank you goes out to Rhovee, and Bowfishn for taking the time to respond to my inquiring on where to begin as I was at a loss as to the burn rate comparisons with other powders. I started out using new hornady brass, fed 215gm primers and the berger 185 gr. classics. brass was all prepped, shooting bench, and chrony all readied. Starting load-104 grs -3422 fps,ending with 108 grs- 3500 fps. absolutely no signs of high pressure; all the while taking measurements of belt and other areas of the case, all with in normal specs. No ejector marks, no sticky bolt lift, literally no signs of case stretch. But the bergers where grouping very poorly, so I went to my 180 gr nosler balistic tips as they always grouped under 1/2" moa at a 100 yds. start-106 grs-3487 fps, went to 107 grs for a velocity of 3549 fps,I was blown away with the velocity I was achieving. I loaded 2 more at 107 grs,and shot them on target measuring 1/2" moa. at 100 yds. All the while keep in mind that its new brass being fire formed. I wanted the bergers to perform well but that didn't happen. I know why, I need to try the redding vld seater die. I did not have the time to play with them as I needed to get rifle load combination ready for upcoming deer season in pa. Before my load consisted of 110 grs of retumbo weatherby brass,and the nosler bal. tps. I always ran high pressure and could only achieve 3357 fps. very poor velocity in my mind for a .30-378 but accuracy was excellent so I stuck with that load. brass life was always short, and I would always experience high pressure spikes out of the blue for no apparent reason. Over time I will see how hornady brass and rl26 works out. I was quite impressed with the hornady brass, upon first inspection and first loading, I would have to say the quality is excellent, and plan on purchasing more brass for some of my other calibers. I should post more on that later. ctw

 

[ifgator]

Bowfishn I hope you see this as I want to thank you and a few others for info on this thread. So a little over 1 year ago I had my first rifle I ever bought (7mm RM) gone through and then also built a semi custom I guess people call it 6.5 CM. I started working up both which is new to me. I was having some frustrations because both respective powders had compressed load issues and I have Redding comp dies blah blah blah. Well I initially wasn't happy with velocity and accuracy. So then health disasters struck and I wasn't cleared to shoot until a couple months ago. Well I did some reading and I just started working up my 7mm RM with this magical RL26 I read about. I am so shocked that I'm wondering how I'm so far off predictions from quickload and questioning my chronograph. I've been to the range twice and the first time I only had time to shoot one load and the 2nd time was a fast trip and shot 2 loads. I'll lay it out and please point out if you guys think I'm off somewhere.
7mm RM with Berger 175 gr Elite Hunter
Nosler unfired brass, GM215, RL26,
26" barrel 1-9" twist
I decided to start 20 thousandths off lands
COAL 3.465
OAL 2.739
Case
H2O 87.0 grains measured from once fired brass. I got hung up on this measurement many months ago and so I called the QL fellow in California and he said to use once fired unsized brass. This measurement is so crucial that this is where I assumed my error is and so a few nights ago I measured another once fired brass and it was 87.3
I did some test shots in the ground before with lower powder charges for safety etc., and while I'm at it please beware and do own testing as I'm not a professional.
37 degrees, 4900 elevation, labradar is my chronograph.
69.5 grains verified on 2 trips to the range was consistently 3,113 FPS and no pressure marks that I can see. QL off the top of my head has me at 2,960ish
70.0 grains showed a slight ejection mark and a normal looking primer with a velocity of roughly 3,130ish and QL was roughly 2,980ish.
So where am I going wrong? I fully understand QL is not the Bible and you can fudge burn rate but but I have felt I've been meticulous with the numbers I feed it and am usually way closer on velocity.
My friend also has a labradar and so I plan on checking velocity with his.

Then my brother in law put together a 28 Nosler and his predicted velocities with Berger 195 grains were significantly low and he was in the 3,180ish range if I remember correctly with RL33. Reason I tell you all this is 2 rifles with faster velocity findings.

 

[Danny1788]

Bowfishn I hope you see this as I want to thank you and a few others for info on this thread. So a little over 1 year ago I had my first rifle I ever bought (7mm RM) gone through and then also built a semi custom I guess people call it 6.5 CM. I started working up both which is new to me. I was having some frustrations because both respective powders had compressed load issues and I have Redding comp dies blah blah blah. Well I initially wasn't happy with velocity and accuracy. So then health disasters struck and I wasn't cleared to shoot until a couple months ago. Well I did some reading and I just started working up my 7mm RM with this magical RL26 I read about. I am so shocked that I'm wondering how I'm so far off predictions from quickload and questioning my chronograph. I've been to the range twice and the first time I only had time to shoot one load and the 2nd time was a fast trip and shot 2 loads. I'll lay it out and please point out if you guys think I'm off somewhere.
7mm RM with Berger 175 gr Elite Hunter
Nosler unfired brass, GM215, RL26,
26" barrel 1-9" twist
I decided to start 20 thousandths off lands
COAL 3.465
OAL 2.739
Case
H2O 87.0 grains measured from once fired brass. I got hung up on this measurement many months ago and so I called the QL fellow in California and he said to use once fired unsized brass. This measurement is so crucial that this is where I assumed my error is and so a few nights ago I measured another once fired brass and it was 87.3
I did some test shots in the ground before with lower powder charges for safety etc., and while I'm at it please beware and do own testing as I'm not a professional.
37 degrees, 4900 elevation, labradar is my chronograph.
69.5 grains verified on 2 trips to the range was consistently 3,113 FPS and no pressure marks that I can see. QL off the top of my head has me at 2,960ish
70.0 grains showed a slight ejection mark and a normal looking primer with a velocity of roughly 3,130ish and QL was roughly 2,980ish.
So where am I going wrong? I fully understand QL is not the Bible and you can fudge burn rate but but I have felt I've been meticulous with the numbers I feed it and am usually way closer on velocity.
My friend also has a labradar and so I plan on checking velocity with his.

Then my brother in law put together a 28 Nosler and his predicted velocities with Berger 195 grains were significantly low and he was in the 3,180ish range if I remember correctly with RL33. Reason I tell you all this is 2 rifles with faster velocity findings.

3180fps with a 28nosler and 195eol is not low speed that's good speed. Most people back down after the barrel brakes in

 

[Wedgy]

Bowfishn I hope you see this as I want to thank you and a few others for info on this thread. So a little over 1 year ago I had my first rifle I ever bought (7mm RM) gone through and then also built a semi custom I guess people call it 6.5 CM. I started working up both which is new to me. I was having some frustrations because both respective powders had compressed load issues and I have Redding comp dies blah blah blah. Well I initially wasn't happy with velocity and accuracy. So then health disasters struck and I wasn't cleared to shoot until a couple months ago. Well I did some reading and I just started working up my 7mm RM with this magical RL26 I read about. I am so shocked that I'm wondering how I'm so far off predictions from quickload and questioning my chronograph. I've been to the range twice and the first time I only had time to shoot one load and the 2nd time was a fast trip and shot 2 loads. I'll lay it out and please point out if you guys think I'm off somewhere.
7mm RM with Berger 175 gr Elite Hunter
Nosler unfired brass, GM215, RL26,
26" barrel 1-9" twist
I decided to start 20 thousandths off lands
COAL 3.465
OAL 2.739
Case
H2O 87.0 grains measured from once fired brass. I got hung up on this measurement many months ago and so I called the QL fellow in California and he said to use once fired unsized brass. This measurement is so crucial that this is where I assumed my error is and so a few nights ago I measured another once fired brass and it was 87.3
I did some test shots in the ground before with lower powder charges for safety etc., and while I'm at it please beware and do own testing as I'm not a professional.
37 degrees, 4900 elevation, labradar is my chronograph.
69.5 grains verified on 2 trips to the range was consistently 3,113 FPS and no pressure marks that I can see. QL off the top of my head has me at 2,960ish
70.0 grains showed a slight ejection mark and a normal looking primer with a velocity of roughly 3,130ish and QL was roughly 2,980ish.
So where am I going wrong? I fully understand QL is not the Bible and you can fudge burn rate but but I have felt I've been meticulous with the numbers I feed it and am usually way closer on velocity.
My friend also has a labradar and so I plan on checking velocity with his.

Then my brother in law put together a 28 Nosler and his predicted velocities with Berger 195 grains were significantly low and he was in the 3,180ish range if I remember correctly with RL33. Reason I tell you all this is 2 rifles with faster velocity findings.

I made a post about adjusting the burn rate(info from Accurate Shooter) but I can't seem to find it. It might be in this thread somewhere. They were having the same issue as you.

 

[ifgator]

3180fps with a 28nosler and 195eol is not low speed that's good speed. Most people back down after the barrel brakes in

I was hoping to get 3100 with it being 37 degrees but I'm sure the powder temp was higher. However it's being off with QL that has me questioning things.

 

[Bowfishn]

According to QL what you got was fairly normal, 10% from lot variation up or down.
Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 89 70.00 3093 3718 71993 12037 100.0 1.238 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 89 70.00 2826 3103 45752 13049 99.9 1.492

It is the 87 gr of H2O that has me puzzled, QL shows a default of 82 and 5 extra seems odd. QL shows the default as fired unsized, they do not say what brass it is.
How full is the case when you put in 70 gr of RL26?
Fill a case with RL26 and weigh it I am curious how many grains you get in a case to the top.

If I run QL using your info but using the default H2O with one of my RL26 ba it comes to the same speed as you are getting with pressures that would give marks on case head and harder than normal bolt lift.
-01.3 94 69.10 3099 3732 71710 11944 100.0 1.226 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.9 94 69.40 3111 3760 72772 11968 100.0 1.218 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.4 95 69.70 3122 3788 73849 11993 100.0 1.211 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 95 70.00 3134 3816 74942 12017 100.0 1.203 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Creedmoor Shooter uses RL26 in his 7mm RM we should see what he is finding with his case fill. I will message him.

 

[jimbires]

I was just shown this a few days ago .

adjust your "weighting factor" , see if this helps . when I use RL26 my velocity is off a lot . when I adjust my "BA" to .371 my velocity is just about spot on , but my pressures go sky high . the weighting factor seems to get things to agree . the chart is a pdf in the third reply in the link below . I'd give weighting factor .39 a try .

https://www.longrangehunting.com/th...weighting-factor-formula.136923/#post-1396725

about half way down in the gray box , Q-load potential pitfalls , " the mysterious weighting factor " .

http://www.6mmbr.com/Quickload.html


now that I know what I'm looking for , the info is out there . good luck , let us know on this Jim

 

[Engineering101]

The way to use QL is to change things like WF and burn rate until it matches your measured results. If you are using a Lab Radar chances are what it says is correct. So make QL match that and you will then have some idea of the pressure you are running (though QL is pretty sloppy when it comes to indicated pressures). Ultimately when you get a good shooting load QL will tell you the barrel timing of that load which can be used (matched) in other loads you produce with different bullets and powders to quickly get those loads to shoot good as well.

 

[Bowfishn]

Looking at Noslers Site they show their 7mm RM loads with Nosler Brass and it does appear Nosler Brass has a high H2O capacity, they list loads with bullet seated and when I checked the 120 BT bullet with COAL of 3.290" it shows 81.4 gr H2O with bullet seated and QL shows starting with your 87 gr H2O loaded to the same it's H2O loaded is 81.7 just what you measured with Nosler Brass at 87
So it leaves the Burn rate factor / BA quite high with your lot and or your rifle has a tight barrel, fast barrel , or whatever that brings pressure and velocity up.
The weighting factor of .39 does change things a bit as well. If I apply that number and use ba of .3700 it comes in line with what you found, the results are listed below.
It would appear that safe max load 62,366 CIP would be down below 68gr of your powder lot if QL pressures are accurate, you already know the 70 gr is giving pressure signs.
Cartridge : 7 mm Rem. Mag.(CIP)
Bullet : .284, 175, Berger Elite Hunt #28554
Useable Case Capaci: 79.327 grain H2O = 5.151 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.465 inch = 88.01 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-26 ?

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.436% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-04.4 84 65.80 2964 3413 56157 12174 100.0 1.357 ! Near Maximum !
-03.9 84 66.10 2975 3440 56930 12206 100.0 1.348 ! Near Maximum !
-03.5 84 66.40 2987 3466 57713 12239 100.0 1.340 ! Near Maximum !
-03.1 85 66.70 2998 3493 58506 12271 100.0 1.332 ! Near Maximum !
-02.6 85 67.00 3009 3519 59309 12303 100.0 1.323 ! Near Maximum !
-02.2 86 67.30 3021 3546 60123 12334 100.0 1.315 ! Near Maximum !
-01.7 86 67.60 3032 3573 60946 12366 100.0 1.307 ! Near Maximum !
-01.3 86 67.90 3044 3600 61781 12397 100.0 1.299 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.9 87 68.20 3055 3626 62626 12429 100.0 1.291 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.4 87 68.50 3066 3653 63482 12460 100.0 1.283 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 88 68.80 3078 3680 64349 12491 100.0 1.275 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.4 88 69.10 3089 3707 65227 12522 100.0 1.267 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.9 88 69.40 3100 3735 66116 12552 100.0 1.259 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.3 89 69.70 3111 3762 67017 12583 100.0 1.251 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.7 89 70.00 3123 3789 67929 12613 100.0 1.244 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

[Bowfishn]

I was just shown this a few days ago .

adjust your "weighting factor" , see if this helps . when I use RL26 my velocity is off a lot . when I adjust my "BA" to .371 my velocity is just about spot on , but my pressures go sky high . the weighting factor seems to get things to agree . the chart is a pdf in the third reply in the link below . I'd give weighting factor .39 a try .

https://www.longrangehunting.com/th...weighting-factor-formula.136923/#post-1396725

about half way down in the gray box , Q-load potential pitfalls , " the mysterious weighting factor " .

http://www.6mmbr.com/Quickload.html


now that I know what I'm looking for , the info is out there . good luck , let us know on this Jim

Thanks for that Info on Weighting Factor, it is useful with QL.

 

[ifgator]

Awesome replies guys. I tried the burn rate adjustment prior to posting but like you said it put pressures to the point where I would thing primers would be flat, cratured, bolt lift issues and maybe hurt the rifle.

Bowfishn I will fill a case of RL 26 like you asked for. You guys amaze me with your skills on QL.

I like velocity like the next guy but I'm just hoping at 69.5 I'm not hurting my rifle. The first day 69.5 grouped well but the second day wasn't as good because I think the shooter (me) was needing and wanting it to perform so well that I was pretty amped up. Then I assumed the 70 grains would be too much pressure and I had almost zero concern or investment for it to shoot well and it was my best group. Now my brother in law pointed something out that was kind of interesting and I realize this doesn't count and am not trying to sound better than I am but I shot groups of 3, 5, 5 and he noticed 9 out of the 13 shots if they were superimposed would be in roughly a 1/2" area. In that way considering I've tried 1 seating depth and 2 powder charges I'm pretty happy. I obviously want to keep working at it and need to learn how to fine tune it so any tips on where to go from here would be appreciated. I don't want to hijack so you could PM as well. So let me look at some of the suggestions and I'll get back with you guys.

 

[ifgator]

So I did try replying to you guys but it's waiting moderator approval. Weird.

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

Per Bowfishin's request here's my data

Browning x-bolt eclipse hunter 26in sporter
Remington case, 84.2 grains of H20
162 eld-match
69.5 grains of rl-26
Cci 250 primer
3.425 oal to the tip.

My velocity is 3112 chronoed at approximately 70°f. I worked up to 70.5 grains which topped out at 3150 under same conditions. I hope this was of help

 

[jimbires]

I forgot to mention , I'm using nosler brass in my 7mm rem mag , my water capacity is 87.11 gr .