Necessary precision to kill something

[Beluebow]

I got 2.5 with my kestrel. The rifle is a switch barrel rig and in that configuration (for ELR) is 24.5 lbs with a NightForce NXS and no bipod. With the 30" hunting barrel and a lighter scope it's 16.5 lbs.
Some rifles are exceptional in capability out to some very long ranges.
But I digress, was simply making a point.

I 100% agree with you.....more folks need to get out and test for themselves and see what actually works or what something may or may not do. It's the age of social media it's easier to watch a video and form an opinion than go get actual experience.

 

[Huntnful]

That's the smart play, and responsible play.

Real world, getting opportunties @ 1k (insert you range) is easy, the hunt comes in when you're working to get closer.

Good on you!

Yeah I like getting close to animals when I can. Killed a couple deer and elk with my bow also. But I also practice long range shooting a lot, so I don't personally feel any different when I kill one at a longer distance, if that's the only option available. I like to have some "target" animals. So I just feel good to get them killed, whether it's at 100 or 900 yards.

 

[Calvin45]

100%.

People should go shoot in actual mountains at distance on vital-sized targets and realize chasing small groups and shooting a flat range or on a bench is not your best use of practice time. Most folks cannot call wind within 4 mph at their position, let alone at the target and in between. Especially in mountainous terrain.

Wind, updrafts, downdrafts, shooting position, brush/obstacles, slopes, rifle zero, heart rate, etc are legitimate hunting variables that nobody accounts for in stale shooting practice.

Then add a timer to up the pressure and folks really fall apart.

Agree. Alas, I have no mountains near me

But the principle remains. Heck even just here in flatland, if your shooting from the edge of a field in a treeline it can be deceiving how much windier it is "out there in the open" compared to how much wind you feel by virtue of being sheltered in the trees. Or if it's a farther shot, and there's a bluff of trees to the side of the shooting lane that provides a change or pause in crosswind during the bullets flight. Can lead to overcompensating for wind that isn't there or isn't constant throughout.

 

[ChrisInKY]

I have 3 Brown precision hunting rifles that are 1/2 MOA capable and all weigh in at 8 1/4 lbs or less fully outfitted. Can I make a 1/2 MOA shot in the field? NOOOO. But they give me the confidence that my rifle is up to the task.

I love the honesty!!

I've got an AR-10 that'll print .5MOA groups all day everyday. I never tried to figure out why ... because it's an AR.

All of my bolt actions are <.5MOA. ALL of them. Yes I have to tune my rounds to make that happen. And, honestly, I've never even bothered to see what they'll do with store-bought ammo. When I'm on top of my shooting more than half of them will print .1MOA groups. But ... that's at a range and under ideal conditions. The point is all of those rifles are able to shoot better than I can under field conditions (just like you).

I won't spend a round on game beyond 600m. That's a limit for me. Varmints are a different story. But, I can also say that's only happened once in the last 40 years (set & setting). All the rest of my long range shooting is limited to targets ... and that's just fine with me.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[dogz]

Yeah I like getting close to animals when I can. Killed a couple deer and elk with my bow also. But I also practice long range shooting a lot, so I don't personally feel any different when I kill one at a longer distance, if that's the only option available. I like to have some "target" animals. So I just feel good to get them killed, whether it's at 100 or 900 yards.

? "target animals"....not sure what you're meaning

 

[blvette75]

This is a great explanation of the precision and accuracy requirements for long range 1st round hits on big game animals vitals in mountainous terrain. It is much more difficult than most people imagine because most people don't actually practice in the mountains enough to fully understand.
I use the same software that was used in this podcast to simulate the performance of our bullets at 1,000 yards and I have found the same results. However, I will add one very important criteria that was not mentioned and that is the consistency of BC from bullet to bullet. If the standard deviation of the BC is not less than 1% of the BC, then a rifle, load combination, and shooter, that is capable of 1.5 MOA 30 shot groups at 100 yards is not capable of even 2 MOA at 1,000 yards.
I am the head engineer at Berger and spend much of my time working on how to make our bullets with a very low distribution of BC variance as is possible. We shoot a sample of bullets from every lot and every shift in a 300 meter indoor range and look at both precision and consistency of BC. I've even redesigned bullet making tooling to bring the SD of BC down.
If you doubt the claim made in this podcast, that it is very hard to achieve 1.5 MOA accuracy, notice I didn't say precision, then I challenge you to take this test. Shoot six five shot groups on one target with a 1.5 MOA circle ️ and try to keep all 30 shots inside that circle. I think you will find that it is very difficult to do, even with a gun that consistently shoots 1/2 MOA individual groups.
Any way, just a very good podcast.

Great explanation, I do have a question, with the wind deflection at distance, from my understanding the higher weight bullets are less impacted by the wind. Is there a general rule of thumb as far as defection by weight versus MPH of cross wind? How does the BC come into play with this scenario? Or does it matter?

 

[Huntnful]

? "target animals"....not sure what you're meaning

Like animals I find either before hunting season and want to kill. Or find during season that I need to figure out how to kill. It's normally calculated killing. Not really stumbling into them while I'm out and about.

 

[Mike Matteson]

That's the smart play, and responsible play.

Real world, getting opportunties @ 1k (insert you range) is easy, the hunt comes in when you're working to get closer.

Good on you!

There you go. Closing the distance. Spot and stock, and a big part of hunting.

 

[ChrisInKY]

Great explanation, I do have a question, with the wind deflection at distance, from my understanding the higher weight bullets are less impacted by the wind. Is there a general rule of thumb as far as defection by weight versus MPH of cross wind? How does the BC come into play with this scenario? Or does it matter?

I know that question is not to me. But, I'd offer you take a look at the drop curves for your bullet. The farther out you're shooting the greater the angle of the target's cross section you're trying to impact.

Some people can almost see it ... dropping a bullet on target -vs- shooting it. I worked for years with an engineer who developed the Navy's software to do that with their BIG guns. It requires a genius I can't even think of holding a candle to.

ETA: I called that fella and he told me tell you this, "Calculate the effect of spin drift (BC ... flight time ... twist rate ... projectile length ... air density). Doing that will give you the legs to answer all the questions you have on the subject by yourself." Of course there was probably 45 minutes of other stuff that were completely over my head. Whoever knew you could calculate a shot from a platform on a rolling sea ... shoot 25 miles ... and drop a 2,000lb round within a hundred yards of what you were aiming at?

 

[dogz]

? "target animals"....not sure what you're meaning

Gotcha, so animals that you've scouted, makes sense been there done that bought the t-shirt

 

[Huntnful]

Gotcha, so animals that you've scouted, makes sense been there done that bought the t-shirt

Exactly

 

[Mike Matteson]

Go where there ground squirrels or P dogs. back up and shoot at longer ranges. That will get your eye and rifle straighten out. In my large game rifles I use a round in them that matches within 100fps. That way the fall is almost the same. Wind is a little different story. 25/06, 308NM, and a 338WM. In ranges out to 500yds with a 2x8 duplex. As said above your rifle has to group to start with, and you need to know how to shoot.
At extended range for very small animals will fine tune you for shooting at longer ranges if you put in the time to shoot. My brother and I would go out and shoot ground Squirrels from 200yds to 400yds. They about 1 1/2" wide, and we are benchup too. If we had G.Sq closer than 200yds we would back up to get the distance. Nothing was fair closers than 200yds. Missing was few and you get better as time goes on.
Now I am getting set up to shoot 400 to 700 yds for P. Dogs. Uphill or downhill, and across a small valleys. Nothing like that to get your eye, and control your rifle like that. You can back up and shoot longer distances too. That will learn you.

 

[dogz]

Good point Mike, I've done a lot of chuck shooting and just as much rock shooting. For chucks I only shoot them sub 300 yds if I'm sitting or offhand. Belly shooting is just too friggin easy. Plus with chucks often they're moving around and so in a sense you're on a clock and that keeps us thinking, setting up and shooting quickly just like in a big game situation. Chucks/rocks also helps a ton of in terms of understanding angles, wind, mirage etc...

For PD's stay the heck off a bench and one will learn a heck of a lot!

 

[R. Cram]

I listened to the entire podcast but I wonder how many who posted on this thread did based on the comments.

I have said many times I love the WEZ approach; I founded a software company that provides data analytics to just about every paper mill in the US (and a few other industries) and consequently, I am a huge fan of applying statistics to shooting. You can't argue with math.

A few things I wished he would have said:
1. Practicing on a range is almost a waste of time for the simple fact you have wind flags and you can see wind at the target from the "puffs" of dirt from other shooters. Huge advantage.
2. Time of flight at ranges beyond 900 yards will degrade your wind call simply because even if perfect, it can change during the TOF (it would be great if this could be modeled).
3. One shot is the best practice (anyone can correct a wind miss and generally be better the second shot although they can certainly "chase the wind") but even when I hit my 4" square at 900 (which is maybe 20% of the time in favorable conditions) I often wonder if I missed the wind but the natural group dispersion made up for it (Jack O'Connor used to call this the "wibbles making up for the wobbles").
4. A discussion of mirage would be a great podcast. In my experience, the higher the humidity, the easier it is to read mirage.
5. It is amazing how many times when I shoot in the mountains at my Colorado place (which is several times a day when I am there) I might think the wind is zero, especially after sunrise but before there is mirage, but a shot at 900 proves otherwise. I can't tell you how many times I think my zero is off, or the barrel is dirty, etc. so I walk 30 feet to my gun vault, grab another rifle, and promptly hit the same place. My observation is that in Arizona if I call it calm in the morning, I am almost never fooled.

if you listen to the podcast, he is essentially saying that no one has any business shooting at game beyond 600 yards and only then if their wind call skills are great; the 700 yard example was on a 14"x14" target with a 1/2 mph wind call, which he said was not realistic. Maybe 14"x14" works for a moose or elk, but not on a deer and certainly not on an antelope.

In shooting highpower we always try to record a no wind zero which I think is pretty easy at 2 and 300 yds but it takes averaging a number of matches to come up with that answer for 600 yds and for 800,900,and 1000 yds all you can say is I think I have a wind zero. It is very likely to be a little different when you go to shoot at a different range in a different state. We had one range where if the mirage was running from left to right you had better adjust your sights but if it ran from right to left it didn't change impact, both of those cases were when the movement was around 1/2 to 3/4 min. if the speed of the wind was greater then the mirage made a difference both ways just less in the one direction. must have been some weird blockage from trees. At any rate people have no place shooting at animals at ranges in windy conditions at more than 300 yds unless they are practiced in shooting in infield conditions and have seen how fickle the wind is. I have shot thousands of rounds in competition at 600 or more yards and I try to keep my shots closer than 400 yds and its rare that I can't close the distance