Necessary precision to kill something

[LRNut]

I like it, run your own numbers.
Shoot a 390 grain ATIP from a 36" .375 Snipetac at 3150 fps. Surely the numbers can't lie!?View attachment 553404View attachment 553405

Ok, that reminds me of a friend of mine who worked at Darpa and was an armor officer. I asked about using lasers for wind measurement on an M1. His reply was "The velocity and BC of the APFSDS round is such that even at 3 kilometers, wind is not a huge deal."

I don't shoot a Snipetac, but I do shoot a 300 Bergers, 225 ELDs, and 190 Bergers for anything over 500 instead of something like a 6.5 for the same reason you use a .375 Snipetac instead of what I am shooting. Allows more wind error.

 

[R. Cram]

Great explanation, I do have a question, with the wind deflection at distance, from my understanding the higher weight bullets are less impacted by the wind. Is there a general rule of thumb as far as defection by weight versus MPH of cross wind? How does the BC come into play with this scenario? Or does it matter?

the bc is a reflexion of how streamlined they are my understanding is the 1.00 is the top of the bc's and supposed to be a 750gr .50 cal bullet so they all seem to have a better bc reguardless of how streamlined they are when they are heavier which usually means larger caliber. The bc also reflects how they do in the wind so higher bc means less wind drift and the ability to retain velocity a good example is the heavy 338 bullets compaired with the heavy 243 bullets both being boattail.

 

[R. Cram]

I think some people really concentrate too much on shooting little bitty 3 shot groups instead of practicing field positions. people are competative and a whole bunch of people who write in to this forum are competing with the other fellow on here for little bitty 3 shot groups at 100 yds. 3 shot groups for sure will lie and so will 100 yd groups for use at long range. I never shoot any high power rifle at less than 200 yds and always at least a 5 shot group. I just had a 5 shot group lie to me, there was a match for M1 garands in rattlesnake mountian in Wa. last weekend so I made up some test ammo with 45 gr Tac, 46 gr tac and 47 gr tac and shot them and the 45 gr and the 47 gr tac didn't do well but the 46 shot a 3 inch group at 200 which I was happy with so I wanted to believe that result and promptly made about 500 of these, well I had the fluke group because testing again the group was way larger than the one I wanted to believe. One of the best Highpower shooters I have ever seen still shoots a 308 across the course even though a 260 or equilivent has the potential to help in the wind but he shoots the same load even when he gets a new barrel and it always works but what he says that is real is spend your time shooting not load testing and reloading shooting off the bench is a waste of time and barrels. The 308 was very good for not being fussy look at federal gold medal match, if your rifle won't shoot it something is wrong with the rifle.

 

[ChrisInKY]

Ok, that reminds me of a friend of mine who worked at Darpa and was an armor officer. I asked about using lasers for wind measurement on an M1. His reply was "The velocity and BC of the APFSDS round is such that even at 3 kilometers, wind is not a huge deal."

The density of sand berms an enemy tank is hiding behind not so much either

 

[geeck]

I think some people really concentrate too much on shooting little bitty 3 shot groups instead of practicing field positions. people are competative and a whole bunch of people who write in to this forum are competing with the other fellow on here for little bitty 3 shot groups at 100 yds. 3 shot groups for sure will lie and so will 100 yd groups for use at long range. I never shoot any high power rifle at less than 200 yds and always at least a 5 shot group. I just had a 5 shot group lie to me, there was a match for M1 garands in rattlesnake mountian in Wa. last weekend so I made up some test ammo with 45 gr Tac, 46 gr tac and 47 gr tac and shot them and the 45 gr and the 47 gr tac didn't do well but the 46 shot a 3 inch group at 200 which I was happy with so I wanted to believe that result and promptly made about 500 of these, well I had the fluke group because testing again the group was way larger than the one I wanted to believe. One of the best Highpower shooters I have ever seen still shoots a 308 across the course even though a 260 or equilivent has the potential to help in the wind but he shoots the same load even when he gets a new barrel and it always works but what he says that is real is spend your time shooting not load testing and reloading shooting off the bench is a waste of time and barrels. The 308 was very good for not being fussy look at federal gold medal match, if your rifle won't shoot it something is wrong with the rifle.

In high gusty full value winds I've seen my buddy shooting a M14 Service Rifle in an XTC match (we were the only 2 still shooting the M14) everyone else including the AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) were shooting the Mouse Gun (AR15/M16) in 5.56/223. My buddy won the match but to give you an idea at 600yd he shot a 197/200 the closest AMU shooter shot a 189/200 that's a big difference folks against the Army's A-team. My buddy was shooting .30 cal Berger185 Juggs on top a case full of power. The AMU would probably have been shooting 80-82 gr bullets out of their Mouse Guns

A big part of the win was his strategy in the wind. He was shooting for 3 o'clock in the 10 ring the wind was blowing right to left. The wind was steady (about 6moa at 600yd) with gusting winds. If he got caught in a gust he had entire 10 and X ring about 2 moa to play with, which is a little over 13 inches. Which is pretty close to the size of the vitals of North America big game. The AMU are trained to shoot for the X ring and I guess that's hard to turn off. Your strategy in the wind will make a big difference in your success, know how to read the wind, how your bullet preforms, and wait for conditions before breaking the shot.

 

[Orange Dust]

Here is what I do. It works with any rifle, at any accuracy level. I have a target set up with a levee as a backstop. I have a straight 4 wheeler trail back to camp that's 1300yds on the way back to camp. whenever I'm out with a rifle either working or hunting, I stop somewhere along the trail, range the target and take a shot and a follow up. If I miss either shot, its too far for me, at least on that day. Some are better than others, wind, mood, blood pressure etc all come into play. Its a 10" steel gong. I found the secret to shooting rifles, especially hunting rifles that kick, is to shoot them a little, but often. Really doesn't matter if you have a 2 minute gun or a 1/4 minute one, the target will tell you how far you can be effective. Also helps to be shooting in the same conditions, and with equipment you are hunting with. Only shoot groups during load development with hunting rifles, unless something seems to change accuracy wise. Very effective and doesn't waste ammo and throats in magnums on useless practice at the range shooting groups from a bench. Might not be for everyone, but works for me, and I think it is good advise if you have a place you can do it. But I am old, what do I know....

 

[Pro2A]

Wind will make one of my accurate rifles look bad real quick. Especially on that first shot…shooter error and other stuff is involved. But if your rifle can hold moa to distance, you're killing a lot of animals!

Wind seperates the shooters from the trigger tuggers.

 

[Orange Dust]

Wind seperates the shooters from the trigger tuggers.

An accurate .22LR, good scope you can dial, and extended ranges are really great practice that is cheap and effective. So is a .308 but costs more to shoot. why not just have both? the .22 gives you something to do while the barrel cools.

 

[R. Cram]

In high gusty full value winds I've seen my buddy shooting a M14 Service Rifle in an XTC match (we were the only 2 still shooting the M14) everyone else including the AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) were shooting the Mouse Gun (AR15/M16) in 5.56/223. My buddy won the match but to give you an idea at 600yd he shot a 197/200 the closest AMU shooter shot a 189/200 that's a big difference folks against the Army's A-team. My buddy was shooting .30 cal Berger185 Juggs on top a case full of power. The AMU would probably have been shooting 80-82 gr bullets out of their Mouse Guns

A big part of the win was his strategy in the wind. He was shooting for 3 o'clock in the 10 ring the wind was blowing right to left. The wind was steady (about 6moa at 600yd) with gusting winds. If he got caught in a gust he had entire 10 and X ring about 2 moa to play with, which is a little over 13 inches. Which is pretty close to the size of the vitals of North America big game. The AMU are trained to shoot for the X ring and I guess that's hard to turn off. Your strategy in the wind will make a big difference in your success, know how to read the wind, how your bullet preforms, and wait for conditions before breaking the shot.

There is a lot of thinking involved with long range, where is the good indicators ,is it going to speed up or slow down or the dreaded switch. last weekend for one of my shots at 600 with my garand I watched the mirage in my scope and decided where to fix my sights then went to shoot my rifle and my spotter new I was going to have a bad shot because right after I left the scope the wind switched and blew to the right enthusiastically to give me a 5 which is probably 18 or 20 inches to the left of center. At CampPerry a long time ago I was shooting at 600 and we got done and I had shot a 200 with 11 or 13 x's which was and is a good score for me and the shooter to the right of me say's do you know what I was doing at 600, to which I reply'd I don't have any idea I was concentrating as hard as I am capable of and in those days it was iron sights only and correctly or not I really was concentrating on the sight picture and the wind . So he says I could see you could shoot pretty well so I waited untill you shot and then watched where your shot went and adjusted his sights accordingly. His name was Peter Laberge, I probably didn't spell that right so I appologise but he was cool headed and smart. The next match at 600 I was at 3 oclock in the 10 ring with the logic that if the wind blew it would blow harder and push me farther into the x or 10 but instead it let off and I shot a 199, he then came over and told me exactly what I was thinking and that wind requires energy and so a let off is more likely than an increase in speed. I was amazed he could figure out my thinking and it was very kind of him to help me out in strategy since I was a couple points within his score I was competition for him so by helping me it could result in a possability of me beating him, he was a gentleman. sometimes by watching the mirage the wind is rythmic so it speed up and then slows down and maybe switches and if it follows a pattern perhaps a person can use that to one's advantage. This last weekend there was 4 Garands and one M14 on the line and then 6 fellows brought their sisters rifle, AR15 however they shot the highest scores

 

[Beluebow]

In shooting highpower we always try to record a no wind zero which I think is pretty easy at 2 and 300 yds but it takes averaging a number of matches to come up with that answer for 600 yds and for 800,900,and 1000 yds all you can say is I think I have a wind zero. It is very likely to be a little different when you go to shoot at a different range in a different state. We had one range where if the mirage was running from left to right you had better adjust your sights but if it ran from right to left it didn't change impact, both of those cases were when the movement was around 1/2 to 3/4 min. if the speed of the wind was greater then the mirage made a difference both ways just less in the one direction. must have been some weird blockage from trees. At any rate people have no place shooting at animals at ranges in windy conditions at more than 300 yds unless they are practiced in shooting in infield conditions and have seen how fickle the wind is. I have shot thousands of rounds in competition at 600 or more yards and I try to keep my shots closer than 400 yds and its rare that I can't close the distance

I see/hear this often.....typically folks will say the L-R has more value when actually it doesn't. Most have 1/2-3/4moa of spin drift built into the rifle making the R-L wind seem like less value. A true no wind zero isn't that hard to get, and spin drift can be calculated with almost any decent ballistic app. The real test of a no wind zero/no spin drift zero is when a switch occurs.

He was shooting for 3 o'clock in the 10 ring the wind was blowing right to left. The wind was steady (about 6moa at 600yd) with gusting winds. If he got caught in a gust he had entire 10 and X ring about 2 moa to play with, which is a little over 13 inches. Which is pretty close to the size of the vitals of North America big game. The AMU are trained to shoot for the X ring and I guess that's hard to turn off. Your strategy in the wind will make a big difference in your success, know how to read the wind, how your bullet preforms, and wait for conditions before breaking the shot.

Emil Praslick called this missing on the amateur side (downwind) vs. professional side (up wind). I have a found nines on either side suck.

 

[LRNut]

There is a lot of thinking involved with long range, where is the good indicators ,is it going to speed up or slow down or the dreaded switch. last weekend for one of my shots at 600 with my garand I watched the mirage in my scope and decided where to fix my sights then went to shoot my rifle and my spotter new I was going to have a bad shot because right after I left the scope the wind switched and blew to the right enthusiastically to give me a 5 which is probably 18 or 20 inches to the left of center. At CampPerry a long time ago I was shooting at 600 and we got done and I had shot a 200 with 11 or 13 x's which was and is a good score for me and the shooter to the right of me say's do you know what I was doing at 600, to which I reply'd I don't have any idea I was concentrating as hard as I am capable of and in those days it was iron sights only and correctly or not I really was concentrating on the sight picture and the wind . So he says I could see you could shoot pretty well so I waited untill you shot and then watched where your shot went and adjusted his sights accordingly. His name was Peter Laberge, I probably didn't spell that right so I appologise but he was cool headed and smart. The next match at 600 I was at 3 oclock in the 10 ring with the logic that if the wind blew it would blow harder and push me farther into the x or 10 but instead it let off and I shot a 199, he then came over and told me exactly what I was thinking and that wind requires energy and so a let off is more likely than an increase in speed. I was amazed he could figure out my thinking and it was very kind of him to help me out in strategy since I was a couple points within his score I was competition for him so by helping me it could result in a possability of me beating him, he was a gentleman. sometimes by watching the mirage the wind is rythmic so it speed up and then slows down and maybe switches and if it follows a pattern perhaps a person can use that to one's advantage. This last weekend there was 4 Garands and one M14 on the line and then 6 fellows brought their sisters rifle, AR15 however they shot the highest score

Reminds me of the condition I hate the worst: gusty wind head on or from behind, switching from 11 to 1 or 5 to 7. Wind is half value left, then half value right. Wind from 9 to 11 or 2 to 4 only varies from 91% to full value. I will take a strong wind from left or right over a gusty switching one any day.

As for spin, AB enabled RFs compensate for it but I zero dead on at 500 at the Phoenix Rod and Gun when conditions are dead calm.

 

[geeck]

If you pull the Viale range at Camp Perry and get in the midfield section on a bad wind day there seems to be no strategy that works .... It's hard to compete against a mouse gun with no recoil and trying to keep from shooting out the bedding on your M14 is a constant issue. However in tough wind conditions I'd still prefer one of my M14s

 

[FireFlyFishing]

Here is what I do. It works with any rifle, at any accuracy level. I have a target set up with a levee as a backstop. I have a straight 4 wheeler trail back to camp that's 1300yds on the way back to camp. whenever I'm out with a rifle either working or hunting, I stop somewhere along the trail, range the target and take a shot and a follow up. If I miss either shot, its too far for me, at least on that day. Some are better than others, wind, mood, blood pressure etc all come into play. Its a 10" steel gong. I found the secret to shooting rifles, especially hunting rifles that kick, is to shoot them a little, but often. Really doesn't matter if you have a 2 minute gun or a 1/4 minute one, the target will tell you how far you can be effective. Also helps to be shooting in the same conditions, and with equipment you are hunting with. Only shoot groups during load development with hunting rifles, unless something seems to change accuracy wise. Very effective and doesn't waste ammo and throats in magnums on useless practice at the range shooting groups from a bench. Might not be for everyone, but works for me, and I think it is good advise if you have a place you can do it. But I am old, what do I know....

dig it

 

[Orange Dust]

dig it

Thanks