Is Bullet Expansion Necessary for Effecive Killing of Game

[edge]

SNIP.

I would much rather have a bullet pass through with 100 fps left than 1000!

SNIP

You must reload for every shot in the field if this is your goal!

Bullets do damage by MOVING FAST!
A SLOW bullet does virtually ZERO damage!!

If a bullet just falls out the off side of an animal then the last couple of inches had a bullet barely pushing through! If that is your goal then shoot a round nose FMJ at low velocity

edge.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

You must reload for every shot in the field if this is your goal!

Bullets do damage by MOVING FAST!
A SLOW bullet does virtually ZERO damage!!

If a bullet just falls out the off side of an animal then the last couple of inches had a bullet barely pushing through! If that is your goal then shoot a round nose FMJ at low velocity

edge.

Edge is correct. In order for the bullet to stop on the hide on the other side, or fall on the ground on the other side, a shooter would have to have cartridges loaded to specific distances and animal types, bone or not, all in a neat catalog ready for dispatch at the correct moment. Or only take shots that are the predetermined distance and type.

My way of thinking, it does not so much matter how much energy is transferred into the target, but how much permanent disruption is caused by the bullet. Permanent wound channels are cause by high speed, and a shape that disperses the fluid in it's path. A flat front, or leading edge, will cause the most disruption. The faster that flat front is going the more damage it causes for the duration of it's interaction with the target.

I believe the size of the projectile matters, but not as much as the shape. A 7mm flat front projectile will cause more damage than a .338 pointed or rounded projectile, going through the target at the same velocity. The bigger bullet starts out making a large hole and carries more momentum to penetrate further. So if all things are equal the larger bullet will kill more efficiently. I know, you can't make them more dead, but you know what I mean.

When I try a new bullet, I first shoot them for accuracy, then catch them in water jugs to see what form they will take on impact, and how far they will penetrate.

I believe that I can predict full penetration more accurately than I can predict how far a frangible bullet will penetrate before it completely degrades and can no longer cause damage. I feel better with a bullet that is tested for consistent deformation down to a specific velocity.

With these things for knowledge, I can determine my equipments limitations. Combine that with my limitations, and atmospheric conditions and I can be confident in the out come when the trigger breaks.

This is how I can have piece of mind.

Steve

 

[elkaholic]

You must reload for every shot in the field if this is your goal!

Bullets do damage by MOVING FAST!
A SLOW bullet does virtually ZERO damage!!

If a bullet just falls out the off side of an animal then the last couple of inches had a bullet barely pushing through! If that is your goal then shoot a round nose FMJ at low velocity

edge.

Hmmmm! I re-read my post I and not sure how you came up with your critique? I THINK THE MORE VELOCITY THE BETTER! (providing the bullet is designed for the velocity) Mt point about exiting at 100 fps was intended to say that the bullet performed its job on the animal. Does that make more sense? And no I don't load for every 100 yd. increment, I was mearly trying to make a point about BEST CASE........Rich

 

[liltank]

I believe the size of the projectile matters, but not as much as the shape. The bigger bullet starts out making a large hole and carries more momentum to penetrate further.

Come on guys.... we all know its not the size, its how we use it!!!! Sorry, couldn't pass that up!

Tank

 

[elkaholic]

Before we start out, this thread has big potential to get ugly and I do NOT want that to happen. This thread is NOT about the ethics and good/evil of non-expanding bullets vs expanding bullets. Please DO NOT flame anyone for their opinion or experience.

The purpose of this thread is to get opinions and more importantly, experience on the effects of non-expanding bullets on game and not to start a big debate.

I am under the opinion that bullet expansion is important to the reliable, effective taking of game but I would like to hear people's experiences on the subject. I believe that expanding bullets cause much greater hemoraging than non-expanding bullets and lead to much quicker kills. Is this right? Is this necessary? Is it situational, i.e. cal, range, game specie?

Let's have a good discussion and learn something and remember we are all fellow shooters and hunters.

Your thoughts.....

Thanks,

Mark

Since we are now several posts in to the original, maybe we should stop an re-read the first paragraph.......Rich

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Come on guys.... we all know its not the size, its how we use it!!!! Sorry, couldn't pass that up!

Tank

Ha. When I wrote that I knew someone was coming with that. So let me re-phrase... It's not just the size and shape, it's where you put it.

I'll now go back to watching the Saints kicking the crap out of the Cards.

Steve

 

[theodore]

Scientifically the larger diameter round has more potential for greater hydrolic shock and greater wound channel but it all depends on the bullet performance.

It is no question that the small calibers are doing extremely well with the right set-up.

 

[T_Bone]

Sometimes too fully understand something, it's good to look back in time, some 130yrs ago, and see just what 1400fps@500gn does while using a black powder cartridge.

Sandy Hook is one of the best reads for long distance shooting of times past. Really impressive and well worth the time reading.

 

[liltank]

Sometimes too fully understand something, it's good to look back in time, some 130yrs ago, and see just what 1400fps@500gn does while using a black powder cartridge.

Sandy Hook is one of the best reads for long distance shooting of times past. Really impressive and well worth the time reading.

That is a very interesting read. It's amazing they were able to time and locate the rounds. It also impressive that the target was even hit. Thanks for the research. I feel like going out and building a Quigly rifle.
Tank

 

[Ridge Runner]

well I haven't been at the long range game as long as most of you, actualy I started in 1981, but didn't do very well at it for the first 12-15 years.
all of my big game experience has been on whitetails and black bear, my first years of hunting we did the party hunting deer driving methods, shots were close at all angles most of the time deer were running full blast by when the shot was taken.
My weapon of choice was the rem. 760 in 270 win with a 4X redfield widefield. Most of the deer shot with the traditional deer load (130 gr of some flavor) would run unless the spine was hit.
Now our deer don't run large they average 90-140#, the absolute most devistating bullet I ever used was a hornady 110 gr hp, it seemed that no matter where they were hit, shoulder, ribs, flank, no matter anywhere in front of the hams and they just went dishrag limp and piled up. they seldom ever exited, I remember only one that had an exit hole, that buck was shot behind the shoulder and a piece of the jacket came out the top of the back between the shoulders.

I even used a 350 rem. mag for a few years, never knocked a deer off his feet with it, like the 6mm's, 25's, and the 270's. Don't get me wrong, I've killed a bunch of deer dead at long range but I've never saw them just melt down at beyond 300 yards like they did with those 110 gr hp's,
This tells me that velocity as well as expansion makes for more effective killing of game at long range.

I also used a specialy pistol for awhile, shooting a 120 gr ssp at about 2600 fps, I never saw that kind of damage with anything, hold for a double lung shot and the deer were a mass of jelly from hams to shoulders. no deer ever took over 1 step after absorbing a ssp
However my last LR hunt of '09, we took 5 deer with the 160 accubonds, ranges were 520, 520, 575, 787, and 1005 yards, all the exit holes were about the same size.
RR

 

[Bud Martin]

The answer to the original question is "no"that was proven from the very first lead ball to go down a musket barrel. good clean hits with solids kill game on a daily basis, they kill very dead and fast and anyone who thinks they don't should as a African guide what he wants in his rifle for a ****ed buffalo. A lot of us shoot game with smk's or a equally hard jacket including myself and what kills the animal is a GOOD, CLEAN hit in a vital area.

 

[theodore]

.....

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I would have to say the consensus short answer is... No, expansion is not necessary for effective killing. Controlled, predictable expansion will increase the effectiveness.

Steve

 

[elkaholic]

I would have to say the consensus short answer is... No, expansion is not necessary for effective killing. Controlled, predictable expansion will increase the effectiveness.

Steve

Shortest answer yet and VERY well stated! Thanks!........Rich