My thoughts on solid copper bullets and in comparison to other bullet types.

[Petey308]

As GL said above, we have ceased the tumbling by carefully watching the SF, we had a bunch tumble that were marginally stable and looked great on paper but as soon as they hit hide the tumbled

Right, a high SG is always desirable. And it's nice that you can get such a high SG with solids compared to some cup and core bullets.

I wish I knew more about just how much that truly affects stability actually within an animal though. Obviously the bullet is spinning and a very high rate before impact, but the resistance it encounters as it contacts flesh will undoubtedly slow or stop the spinning. If it didn't, we'd see petals on bullets like Barnes in a few of the pictures in my original post with angled petals in the direction of rotation instead of simply pealed straight back.

So while increased SG sounds good to maintain stability through the animal, I'm not yet convinced it truly works out that. It's definitely a good theory and there may very well be merit to it. I'd love to see more evidence to study on it, for sure, other than theory alone. I'm not at all saying you're wrong either. It very possible it has a positive effect on the terminal performance.

I have seen gel tests with evidence the bullet still had at least some spin to it as it first entered the gel, but it appears they always stop rather quickly too.

I was looking at the container of recovered Hammers in the picture Fordy posted and I can see one example in there of a bullet that appears to have nosed over and maybe tumbled. I've circled it in red here:

 

[Petey308]

A good many bullets tumble after impact and the result is not always bad. And the release of petals to add wound channels is nearly always a good thing. At least some of them will strike a vital part of the animal and provide a lethal result. Personally I like a entrance and exit hole and a wound cavity of 3 to 5 inches in diameter from start to finish. The pure copper bullets that remain in one piece have provided that for me and I've used them exclusively for the past 15 years. I closely examine every animal I take as well as the others that my hunting party takes and have found that the solid copper bullets to perform best for me. The lead bullets that shed 30 to 50 percent of their weight at the entrance site can produce spectacular knock down results, but also result in massive amounts of bloodshot meat. And sometimes poor penetration can occur from non bonded lead bullets. I've seen an older design nosler partition literally dissintegrate on a slight uphill shot on a mouflon ram at 300 yds from a 140 gr 7mm partition.

Keep in mind, as I've stated, even cup and core bullets are used outside their own limitations, poor results tend to follow. Too little sectional density matched with too much impact resistance a lot of times is to blame for a lot of the poor performance people see and talk about.

I'm also one that believes in a quick and humane death of the animal is more important than meat wasted or not. I'm definitely not trying to lose meat, but I do want to kill the animal fast and without suffering. I've seen many lead core bullets do this, and without exiting, and with coming apart a good deal. I do not translate this to poor performance if it is consistent and reliable. Bloodshot meat is not desirable, but ultimately if the animal dies humanely and I'm left with an easy recovery I'm satisfied. Most of the time the meat that is lost is much less that you're led to believe. This is when shot placement is key as well.

 

[Hugnot]

No tumbling for me. Seems like most of the deer I have shot have not been broadside shots & vital locations have been behind point of impact. This makes straight line path thru animal, good penetration & expansion important. At the present time deers and 6mm calibers are as big as it gets for me and I only use Barnes solid bullets for shooting deers. I have the impression the Barnes bullets are total copper or close to being all copper vs. copper/zinc alloy and more malleable (less likely to fragment). My self imposed limit for shooting deers is 400 yards wanting impact velocities to be adequate for expansion & less chance for a screw-up due to trajectory, wind, & TOF stuff.

I have a .300WM & a few boxes of 178 ELDM's and it would probably be a better deer killer than the .243's for ranges greater than 400. The 7.62X39 FMJ is notorious for tumbling and not an exception to Hague conventions.

 

[Petey308]

I may have to try those also as they maybe a better fit for a 30-06 then the 208 eldm I am going to test. I like the SMK's but tended to stay away from the TMK's as I read they can be harder to tune. Thanks for the tip.

I've shot many different TMKs now and in many different guns and I personally have found they tune much easier than ELDMs or AMAXs. Sierra made them with a pronounced junction from the ogives to bearing surface and that has made them act similar to a hybrid and still self align to the bore very well and not be so finicky with jump.

 

[Hard rock]

Gday
Time to move forward I believe & put my cards on the table
Really I'm not the one to be here I think as my data is not going to suite a lot of you guys as the long range guys have the proper data & information
Im definitely no guru or expert either
So please accept my apology LRH members in advance but I'll put my results forward for the guys I'm trying to help back on my home forum & my own personal knowledge
if anyone gets anything out of it all the better as long as the last paragraph is okay first before I enter into this
( yes permission I seek to take what I learn away & ask questions that are not going to be applicable to long range )

To show im serious Here's a few of hammer shanks & odd petal & I'm not here to sugar coat it look closely I've got tumbled in the mix
Now these are from a variety of caliber/ pills , impact velocity/ resistance ranges & velocities in a variety of animals
from the start till today we have learnt a heap & adjusted the parameters as information has become evident

more information will come as we
Head along the journey of hammers

tumbling & turning has ceased in what we are doing now & new barrels on the way to either prove or dismiss our theories even more as failure is not a option in our minds ( I work with some incredible minds & im just the test dummy )
It's a working progress thing as we find out more we adjust ( this is all independent from anything Steve & Brian do & if they take it or not is upto them )
& this is why I'm still here it's you petey308 & lrh members

ive already got notes I'm going to take away from this ( it's good people I'm not going to go off on a rant yes the chain is still attached lol )

I'll post some pics of vitals & animals if your interested ( I can do that )
Ive also got videos from runs to bangflops on animals that usually won't die with whatever they are hit with
But here's the thing I'm actually pretty dumb on posting & technology & I leave that up to my brother ButterBean to post as he has & I won't direct anything on how to get it as I'm not getting caught again
Now the ones I wish I did have videos of was the donkeys but it's hard to get all correct when your in cull mode
Lastly I won't usually comment on CNS as basically any pill within its parameters will kill when hit there ( but still useful data is collected) it's the bad placed shot we learn so much from & the insurance I search for when choosing a good projectile to hunt with

That's what I'll produce if it's ok by the LRH family & you sir & all can put up with the long winded all over the place posts
Whatever way it goes I'm cool
Cheers
View attachment 309222

The more that I read these type of posts, the more I'm glad that I am only a "medium range" hunter. It makes it a lot easier to have a bullet that works great from "hair burning" range, breaking heavy bone and offering deep (often pass through) at extreme impact angles, out to ranges at which proper expansion is no longer guaranteed! True Long Range Hunting does have it's complications ....doesn't it! memtb

Yes the variables increase with distance and I'm not talking about scope magnification

 

[xsn10s]

I've shot many different TMKs now and in many different guns and I personally have found they tune much easier than ELDMs or AMAXs. Sierra made them with a pronounced junction from the ogives to bearing surface and that has made them act similar to a hybrid and still self align to the bore very well and not be so finicky with jump.

I haven't viewed the TMK's yet. I do agree that the SMK's have more of a tangent ogive and the Hornady's favor more of a secant ogive. In any case I'll look for some TMK's in the future. Easier to tune would be a nice feature! I just got a box of 168 ELDM's to test out. Hopefully in the near future I'll get to test them. Thanks Petey!

 

[Petey308]

I haven't viewed the TMK's yet. I do agree that the SMK's have more of a tangent ogive and the Hornady's favor more of a secant ogive. In any case I'll look for some TMK's in the future. Easier to tune would be a nice feature! I just got a box of 168 ELDM's to test out. Hopefully in the near future I'll get to test them. Thanks Petey!

My pleasure and good luck!

 

[ButterBean]

Right, a high SG is always desirable. And it's nice that you can get such a high SG with solids compared to some cup and core bullets.

I wish I knew more about just how much that truly affects stability actually within an animal though. Obviously the bullet is spinning and a very high rate before impact, but the resistance it encounters as it contacts flesh will undoubtedly slow or stop the spinning. If it didn't, we'd see petals on bullets like Barnes in a few of the pictures in my original post with angled petals in the direction of rotation instead of simply pealed straight back.

So while increased SG sounds good to maintain stability through the animal, I'm not yet convinced it truly works out that. It's definitely a good theory and there may very well be merit to it. I'd love to see more evidence to study on it, for sure, other than theory alone. I'm not at all saying you're wrong either. It very possible it has a positive effect on the terminal performance.

I have seen gel tests with evidence the bullet still had at least some spin to it as it first entered the gel, but it appears they always stop rather quickly too.

I was looking at the container of recovered Hammers in the picture Fordy posted and I can see one example in there of a bullet that appears to have nosed over and maybe tumbled. I've circled it in red here:

View attachment 309266

That bullet did tumble, one of the many, we found the recommended twist rate on the Hammer website is gospel and must be adhered to

 

[ButterBean]

The more that I read these type of posts, the more I'm glad that I am only a "medium range" hunter. It makes it a lot easier to have a bullet that works great from "hair burning" range, breaking heavy bone and offering deep (often pass through) at extreme impact angles, out to ranges at which proper expansion is no longer guaranteed! True Long Range Hunting does have it's complications ....doesn't it! memtb

X-2

 

[Petey308]

That bullet did tumble, one of the many, we found the recommended twist rate on the Hammer website is gospel and must be adhered to

I'd be curious to see if going by such high SG will truly eliminate that issue. Ironically, statistics and sample size for data was brought up in another one of my posts, and I'd say it applies here too. I'm not sure how many samples would need to happen though before you can feel confident in the reliability and predictability. No bullet is without its potential for anomaly, so I wouldn't think one "failure" would necessarily conclude it doesn't work. Even a few out of hundreds wouldn't necessarily be unacceptable, yet would be frustrating. If it happens in a 20 round sample though, I'd think that could be cause for rejection. Consider a typical box of ammo is 20 rounds, so if a hunter goes out on a hunt and loses an animal due to a random failure of even one round in that box, typically that hunter has no desire to keep using that ammo.

So I certainly hope the high SG works and makes them much more reliable and predictable. Every bullet goes through phases with development and improvements.

 

[IHFarmer07]

I have been running Badlands's Bulldozers since last year and I'm thoroughly impressed with them so far shoots well and consistent. I have a few deer claimed by them and the farthest was 648 yards, wasn't the best shot on her with a misread on the wind but she dropped in her tracks. No meat ruined and if I had been using a cup core bullet I'd had one H3LL of a mess.

The thing I like most about the lathe turned copper bullets like hammer, badlands and whoever else makes them lathe turned is they are all uniform in every way!! No variations whatsoever. Will still use cup and core bullets but I like where copper bullets are headed. I shoot Barnes in my 30-06 but is a short range/brush gun anymore and they do well. With reloading, consistency is key and with that you can't get any more consistent than copper/lathe turned bullets!! At 794 yards my load with the Badlands's are .3 moa 3 shot group, I did it twice with them.



Thanks for the very civil bullet discussions!! @Petey308

 

[Swiftkill]

SO, what you are saying is... "IT DEPENDS"!.......
Let me say first that I am an engineer.
We are trying to apply an exact science of bullet construction developed in a controlled lab and then test in a Random environment. So a bullet traveling at 2300 fps is awesome and at 2100 fps it is inadequate?
THEN, 1st, you have to know know your velocity at any given distance and don't shoot farther than the minimum required velocity.
Also, if an animal is quartering toward or away from you all bets are off because you don't know for sure if you will glance off the shoulder blade which is irregularly shaped and any impact angle can be infinite between 0 and 90 degrees and in a 360 degree circle or ellipse? (I suppose). Or, will you sneak the bullet into soft tissue which will initiate expansion and now you have an expanding bullet trying to penetrate whatever is next in its path?
MY personal Bottom line is that hunting is brutal (Kinda like war is hell) and no two situations are going to be the same. You have to look at the bullet manufacturer's description.
Definitely consider other hunters experiences.
Look at BEST and worst case scenarios of the bullet performance and choose what you THINK you want your bullet to do. ANY bullet will kill with the correct placement as has been proven with the use of 22 LR on elephant. (You can easily kill a deer with a 223 55 gr FMJ...Is it Ideal? Is it risky that you might wound an animal?) The industry and Hunters have set the standards and parameters. If you want to really hunt then jump out of a tree and try to strangle the animal to death.
Our firearms and bullets are only the "best" tools we have available right now.

MY main criteria is to pick one or more AVAILABLE bullets (Or loaded ammo) that you THINK will perform, but of most importance is to make sure it is accurate enough for the maximum distance you think you will shoot.
THEN, the hunter has to be ethical. If you cannot shoot from field positions accurately enough at 250 yards, you have no business shooting at an animal at 350 yards. And then, you need to practice, at least enough to feel competent.
FWIW.
Thanks,

Mike

 

[Petey308]

I have been running Badlands's Bulldozers since last year and I'm thoroughly impressed with them so far shoots well and consistent. I have a few deer claimed by them and the farthest was 648 yards, wasn't the best shot on her with a misread on the wind but she dropped in her tracks. No meat ruined and if I had been using a cup core bullet I'd had one H3LL of a mess.

The thing I like most about the lathe turned copper bullets like hammer, badlands and whoever else makes them lathe turned is they are all uniform in every way!! No variations whatsoever. Will still use cup and core bullets but I like where copper bullets are headed. I shoot Barnes in my 30-06 but is a short range/brush gun anymore and they do well. With reloading, consistency is key and with that you can't get any more consistent than copper/lathe turned bullets!! At 794 yards my load with the Badlands's are .3 moa 3 shot group, I did it twice with them.



Thanks for the very civil bullet discussions!! @Petey308

No doubt turned solids are very consistent. There's a reason Cutting Edge bullets dominate the ELR target shooting world. What I'm most concerned with is overall terminal performance. The main point is always using a bullet within its specific limitations. In a long range hunting forum, I'd want to stress that almost all solids come with a need for speed. Obviously at true long ranges speeds tend to be lower, so it's something I think should be well known and understood here. It's been mentioned already that a lot of guys here aren't shooting true long ranges, and even more a lot of those shooting solids are not, so it just so happens most are actually using them within their limitations, which is great.

 

[GLTaylor]

We've been tinkering and testing for about 3 yrs or so. Admittedly a small sample size (my personal numbers only), but since testing a terminal stability factor of over 2 (up to 3.8 or so) I've not had a single tumble - and that includes 3 intentional shots through the shoulder/leg bones. This is from upwards of 40 whitetails. No moose or elk in this state. I have shot intentionally at all quartering angles as well as head on through the brisket trying to test and capture shanks with little luck. The one shank I captured was from 351 yds, head on, with the 131 7mm Hammer Hunter. The bullet demolished the lungs and travelled stem to stern, through the left ham and lodged under the hide at the rump. MV was over 3600 with a 7 RUM. I'd have to look up impact velocity, but probably at or above 2900. My current pets are the 6.5mm 85gr HH with a MV of just over 4000 and a tinkered with 7mm 113 SH at just under 4000. Next up will be a 30 cal. 120gr LH at about 3800 MV.
Obviously, I do not shoot at long range. I limit myself to 400 and in.