My thoughts on solid copper bullets and in comparison to other bullet types.

[Petey308]

Fascinating, I am enjoying this.

All my real world experience on game is with mono's...I honestly like exit wounds and lots of penetration (allows for more shot angles)

But always willing to hear and learn on how I can improve (outside of CA that is)

Here's a couple examples of awesome kills with another lead free option out there. These were taken using a 175gr Terminal Shock bullet out of a 300 win mag, made by Dynamic Research Technologies. These are one of my favorite lead free bullets for hunting. They have a compressed copper powder core and are not actually solid. The powder comes apart after impact and absolutely devastates organs.

This is not me, by the way. This is the president of Dynamic Research Technologies.

 

[Hard rock]

Here's a couple examples of awesome kills with another lead free option out there. These were taken using a 175gr Terminal Shock bullet out of a 300 win mag, made by Dynamic Research Technologies. These are one of my favorite lead free bullets for hunting. They have a compressed copper powder core and are not actually solid. The powder comes apart after impact and absolutely devastates organs.

This is not me, by the way. This is the president of Dynamic Research Technologies.
View attachment 309093View attachment 309094

If they quite making monos I would still have too shoot controlled expansion bullets I like a exit no matter where it impacts

 

[memtb]

If they quite making monos I would still have too shoot controlled expansion bullets I like a exit no matter where it impacts

X 2! memt

 

[Muddyboots]

@Petey308 : first great detail discussion that will make us all think little harder on why we use a specific bullet.

So what we need is an empirical formula that calculates the hydrohydraulic shock (HS) (my naming convention) factor of a bullet to achieve the desired shock thus quickest humane kill. I am thinking it would be the @Petey308 HS Factor!

Something similar to the simpler Taylor KO Factor.

This would address hydrostatic and hydraulic shock desired based upon bullet design, construction, mass (before and after desired fragmentation), velocity versus animal mass/density.

So have you developed a formula that we could just input the variables?

Just kidding! Probably needs a Petaflop rated computer!

 

[Petey308]

@Petey308 : first great detail discussion that will make us all think little harder on why we use a specific bullet.

So what we need is an empirical formula that calculates the hydrohydraulic shock (HS) (my naming convention) factor of a bullet to achieve the desired shock thus quickest humane kill. I am thinking it would be the @Petey308 HS Factor!

Something similar to the simpler Taylor KO Factor.

This would address hydrostatic and hydraulic shock desired based upon bullet design, construction, mass (before and after desired fragmentation), velocity versus animal mass/density.

So have you developed a formula that we could just input the variables?

Just kidding! Probably needs a Petaflop rated computer!

Man, that would be amazing, would it? Lol. I truly wish that were possible, and maybe with the right computer program, it could be. I think there's just way too many other variables that are dependent upon too many unknowns that it just wouldn't be viable. Where exactly the bullet is going to hit is one of the biggest unknowns and the particular animal is the other huge unknown. You don't always know how the animal will respond. Adrenaline and the strive to survive do crazy things.

It would take so much guesswork out of it though if it were possible lol.

 

[gte150v]

Thanks Petey308, this is a great discussion. My professional engineering experience in a similar field as well as hunting experience has led me to many of the same observations. What I really appreciate about your post is you give us your data AND your conclusions and invite us to join in dialogue. Looking over your photos and reconciling those with experiences of our own is extremely helpful. I learned a lot from the actual bullet cross sections.

Thanks again and I'm grateful for your time and effort.

 

[fordy]

Gday
Time to move forward I believe & put my cards on the table
Really I'm not the one to be here I think as my data is not going to suite a lot of you guys as the long range guys have the proper data & information
Im definitely no guru or expert either
So please accept my apology LRH members in advance but I'll put my results forward for the guys I'm trying to help back on my home forum & my own personal knowledge
if anyone gets anything out of it all the better as long as the last paragraph is okay first before I enter into this
( yes permission I seek to take what I learn away & ask questions that are not going to be applicable to long range )

To show im serious Here's a few of hammer shanks & odd petal & I'm not here to sugar coat it look closely I've got tumbled in the mix
Now these are from a variety of caliber/ pills , impact velocity/ resistance ranges & velocities in a variety of animals
from the start till today we have learnt a heap & adjusted the parameters as information has become evident

more information will come as we
Head along the journey of hammers

tumbling & turning has ceased in what we are doing now & new barrels on the way to either prove or dismiss our theories even more as failure is not a option in our minds ( I work with some incredible minds & im just the test dummy )
It's a working progress thing as we find out more we adjust ( this is all independent from anything Steve & Brian do & if they take it or not is upto them )
& this is why I'm still here it's you petey308 & lrh members

ive already got notes I'm going to take away from this ( it's good people I'm not going to go off on a rant yes the chain is still attached lol )

I'll post some pics of vitals & animals if your interested ( I can do that )
Ive also got videos from runs to bangflops on animals that usually won't die with whatever they are hit with
But here's the thing I'm actually pretty dumb on posting & technology & I leave that up to my brother ButterBean to post as he has & I won't direct anything on how to get it as I'm not getting caught again
Now the ones I wish I did have videos of was the donkeys but it's hard to get all correct when your in cull mode
Lastly I won't usually comment on CNS as basically any pill within its parameters will kill when hit there ( but still useful data is collected) it's the bad placed shot we learn so much from & the insurance I search for when choosing a good projectile to hunt with

That's what I'll produce if it's ok by the LRH family & you sir & all can put up with the long winded all over the place posts
Whatever way it goes I'm cool
Cheers

 

[Teri Anne]

Brittle will mean pieces breaking/fracturing off and simply leaving a shank to pencil through. Wide wounding and massive hydraulic forces come from a wide frontal area to displace a high amount of tissue and fluids. Pieces that break off are going to help shed weight and reduce sectional density and transfer more energy into the animal, but depending on how much wounding those pieces do alone, there still might not be a great deal of overall trauma, especially with a less than ideal shot placement.

What I picture as an optimal design would be something more brittle at the nose/ogive with a large cavity and/or slots to initiate immediate expansion, then they'd breakaway, but leave a softer, more malleable, material on the shank with its own method to still mushroom to create a wider frontal area as it continues to penetrate and displace tissue and fluids. This is what a good cup and core bullet does though, so I'm still not sure how you combine harder and softer lead free metal like that.

Perhaps a better method would be to use the DRT technology of compressed copper powder and solid copper together. They use the copper powder as their entire core with a thin copper jacket swaged over it. Their version just like that actually works great on its own, but perhaps with some testing, you could make something similar to the Federal TLR bullets that have a solid copper base but a lead core in the ogive. Instead of lead, you'd have the compressed copper powder. Or, make it similar to a Partition or A-frame where it has the compressed copper powder in two separate compartments- one in the ogives and one in the base (rather than lead). That way it still works in two stages like the Partitions and A-frames. The issues you want to get right though would be balancing the weight of the bullet and getting the density right. You can do all these great things to make it perform excellent terminally, but if it doesn't have good external ballistics and flies through the air unstable it's simply not going to perform well overall. There would be lots of hurdles and trials to overcome, I'm sure.

It would be extremely fun to experiment with, for sure.

I for one like your research, especially since I have just started toying with all copper bullets. So far accuracy wise they simply rock, mini sub MOA groups with round to round consistency. Have no idea how they will perform on deer. Ya all will have to wait until after deer season for that report. Others should sit up and take notice.

 

[mercerbear]

Gday
Time to move forward I believe & put my cards on the table
Really I'm not the one to be here I think as my data is not going to suite a lot of you guys as the long range guys have the proper data & information
Im definitely no guru or expert either
So please accept my apology LRH members in advance but I'll put my results forward for the guys I'm trying to help back on my home forum & my own personal knowledge
if anyone gets anything out of it all the better as long as the last paragraph is okay first before I enter into this
( yes permission I seek to take what I learn away & ask questions that are not going to be applicable to long range )

To show im serious Here's a few of hammer shanks & odd petal & I'm not here to sugar coat it look closely I've got tumbled in the mix
Now these are from a variety of caliber/ pills , impact velocity/ resistance ranges & velocities in a variety of animals
from the start till today we have learnt a heap & adjusted the parameters as information has become evident

more information will come as we
Head along the journey of hammers

tumbling & turning has ceased in what we are doing now & new barrels on the way to either prove or dismiss our theories even more as failure is not a option in our minds ( I work with some incredible minds & im just the test dummy )
It's a working progress thing as we find out more we adjust ( this is all independent from anything Steve & Brian do & if they take it or not is upto them )
& this is why I'm still here it's you petey308 & lrh members

ive already got notes I'm going to take away from this ( it's good people I'm not going to go off on a rant yes the chain is still attached lol )

I'll post some pics of vitals & animals if your interested ( I can do that )
Ive also got videos from runs to bangflops on animals that usually won't die with whatever they are hit with
But here's the thing I'm actually pretty dumb on posting & technology & I leave that up to my brother ButterBean to post as he has & I won't direct anything on how to get it as I'm not getting caught again
Now the ones I wish I did have videos of was the donkeys but it's hard to get all correct when your in cull mode
Lastly I won't usually comment on CNS as basically any pill within its parameters will kill when hit there ( but still useful data is collected) it's the bad placed shot we learn so much from & the insurance I search for when choosing a good projectile to hunt with

That's what I'll produce if it's ok by the LRH family & you sir & all can put up with the long winded all over the place posts
Whatever way it goes I'm cool
Cheers
View attachment 309222

@fordy

What has been your experience with respect to terminal performance on game using light for caliber Shock Hammers going very fast?

For example, the .277 85 grain pill or similar? Or the lever hammers from a magnum?

 

[Hugnot]

I now do most of my shooting with .224 & .243 caliber rifles except for .204 calibers. I have several 6.5's but they are too heavy to tote around around. I shoot mostly rodents except for an occasional coyote. My walk about rifles are .224's & .243's. If I need to shoot something over 75 pounds or so, I will always go for a monolithic or solid copper bullet. Shooting at an almost 250 pound mule deer at 335 yards on a quartering shot, left side presented, body facing me, at 30-35 degrees I put an .243 85 grain Barnes triple shock, hollow point just on the back edge of the left shoulder. The bullet went diagonally thru about 2.5 feet of deer and came to rest embedded in the right side of the pelvis. The deer at first showed little reaction but I knew I scored a hit as water sprayed from deer hair and a muffled "spat" sound came back. The other deers took off running & the dead on it's feet deer stood like paralyzed. Thinking the deer might be just wounded I quickly put another bullet right thru the left shoulder of the now broad side deer; that bullet went completely thru both shoulders. The left front leg was almost detached from the deer's body.

The MV was 3175, G1 BC .333, estimated impact velocity 2260 fps, impact energy just under 1,000 ft./lbs. Recovered bullet had perfect mushroom shape.

I have now added another 6mm rifle, it is a 6mm-06, 8 twist and some 95 grain Barnes tipped LR solid copper bullets.

All this was a really big deal for somebody who normally maxes out on 8 pound rodents.

My compliments to Petey308.

Edit: .243 Win, about .7-.8 inch 100 yard groups with H4350, 41.0-42.0 grains (can't remember load)

 

[vancewalker007]

do I feel like I'm about to get undeservingly ganged up on here

Could you give me a few specific examples? Please don't take me wrong here. I'm not an expert and I won't claim to be. I have a passion for this stuff though and am always looking to learn more. I truly wish to one day hunt in Africa, but I have not yet and I will fully admit I have not studied extensively on hunting African game and what is required for best results on those kinds of animals.

I did not make this post to try to make myself look good or come off as some guru. I made a post on bullet construction the other day and was asked to share my thoughts on solids, so here it is. It's really that simple. I feel like suddenly though I'm getting ganged up on to try to tear this whole post apart. Hopefully I'm wrong though. I remember your post the other day. I made a comment or two on it. I did see it has since disappeared. I hope you don't think that whatever issue you had with someone else regarding Hammers is carrying over here. That's the impression I'm getting though. I really don't want any part of all that though.

I'm just here sharing my thoughts and experiences like everyone else in the hopes we all become better and have even more success out there. If you can teach me new things, I'm all ears and will welcome it.

True solids are normally used as second shot to penetrate at an odd shooting angle you might have after firing that first expanding bullet at the heart lung of say a cape buff. The solid can penetrate and break a hip. Also, most shots in Africa are less than 300 yards unless you purposely set yourself up for a long shot. There is so much game there you can pass on unnecessary long shots. The first trip there I shot the 180 TTSX in a 300 WSM. My longest shot was on the point of the shoulder of a Blue Wildebeest quartering away head to me at 225 yards. Way way more than enough velocity to expand the bullet. He still went 50 yards. Two months ago we went and hunted a more open area. My longest shot was 500 yards on a big blue bull Eland. My 6.5 PRC shooting the Berger 156 EOL did the job with 2 shots. That bullet has about the same sectional density as a 218gr 30 cal. I wish the second shot had been a Barnes LRX though to get more penetration once he was stopped. The first shot anchored him, then second broke a leg and made him lay down. We moved in close for a final 3rd shot. That was the only time I wished I had a more penetrating bullet on this last trip. The other 17 antelope we shot dropped DRT or only went 20-30 yards and folded from a single shot. The Giraffe my wife shot was shot with a 375 H&H, no 6.5 PRC bullet was going handle that job period. Hahaha. Like people are saying in this thread, proper bullet expansion is way more important because it creates hydraulic cavitation and allows the bullet to travel in a straight line through the vitals. In the early days of the Barnes copper bullets they were notorious for penciling through or bending and coming back out the side they went in. I think they have mostly solved these issues, but users can certainly screw up and hit an animal with too little velocity causing penciling.

 

[Hugnot]

Photo of 100 gr. Barnes .257 3X recovered from large deer shot at 357 yards, impact velocity about 2250.

 

[ButterBean]

Man, that would be amazing, would it? Lol. I truly wish that were possible, and maybe with the right computer program, it could be. I think there's just way too many other variables that are dependent upon too many unknowns that it just wouldn't be viable. Where exactly the bullet is going to hit is one of the biggest unknowns and the particular animal is the other huge unknown. You don't always know how the animal will respond. Adrenaline and the strive to survive do crazy things.

It would take so much guesswork out of it though if it were possible lol.

If I may I'm gonna tell you what Fordy has came up with in the Hammer world, "Velocity Brackets" There has been a ton of testing done and this was what fordy came up with for Hammer bullet selection, Take Your maximum intended range, adjust your projectiles weight to find maximum impact velocity for that range ( Providing your twist rate will stabilize your choice) We concentrate on impact velocity with Hammers and disregard energy numbers. Now here is where folks start shaking their heads, Hammers upon impact shed petals ( Stick with me because here is where it gets interesting) we are not sure if the petals are ahead of the shank pulling it or behind the shank in tow but the petals stay with the shank making mush out of everything as they go. Combine that with both of the Hydro's multiplied by the extra speed we are achieving and then add that your shot placement is basically unlimited .............. we have found some very deadly combinations

 

[mercerbear]

If I may I'm gonna tell you what Fordy has came up with in the Hammer world, "Velocity Brackets" There has been a ton of testing done and this was what fordy came up with for Hammer bullet selection, Take Your maximum intended range, adjust your projectiles weight to find maximum impact velocity for that range ( Providing your twist rate will stabilize your choice) We concentrate on impact velocity with Hammers and disregard energy numbers. Now here is where folks start shaking their heads, Hammers upon impact shed petals ( Stick with me because here is where it gets interesting) we are not sure if the petals are ahead of the shank pulling it or behind the shank in tow but the petals stay with the shank making mush out of everything as they go. Combine that with both of the Hydro's multiplied by the extra speed we are achieving and then add that your shot placement is basically unlimited .............. we have found some very deadly combinations

Do you think that the petals / shank relationship could be examined in ballistic gel and slow motion video?