Long range HUNTING cartridges limitations

[jrsolocam]

I'm perfectly fine and admire you having personal limits as long as you don't arbitrarily apply your opinion as a limitation to others.

1) 500 yards is a chip shot with several of my rifles unless the wind is extreme. Deer close in are more likely to spook than those further out; I typically find it easier to set up and patiently wait for the right shot at longer ranges than close in where the animal may suddenly become aware of my presence.
2) I absolutely-guarantee-you I view them as targets. I'm sending a bullet towards their vitals with the intent to kill them. I respect the animals, but they are a target to put a bullet in so I can put meat in the freezer to feed my family and other families in need of meat. I want to make the absolute best shot possible, I want it to be as perfect as possible and quick, but in the end, they ARE the target of a bullet.

Exactly. A shot at an animal at 500-700 ( this varies) that is stationary and not spooked is much more humane than a guy who blasts away at a running deer at 150 yards. Ive seen so many rodeos. One who practices and uses his head at long range is much more humane than the yahoo blasting away at lessor distances.

 

[Bravo 4]

Yep...
A buddy of mine has killed two deer this year, both we'll under 100 yards. Both were neck shots while aiming behind the shoulder. One is a beast of a whitetail that almost hits the 160" mark. His rifle shoots really well too.

 

[soundwaves]

l sometimes forgets how easy positions some of you guys shoot from. l have never been abel to shoot from porn position in my life. because all the hunting situations lm in. the animal is always at a steep angle. last shot l took was at 450 meters, and l was basicly crouched down on one leg and the other leg was not tuching the floor in order to aim at the animal from the only decent rock l found. it wasnt decent by any means 99% of the time l can not watch the animal for longer than a minute from my scope because the positions are so awkwerd that my arms legs back start ackeing after a few seconds. dificultys of hunting ibex compared to deer l guess.
l have seen loads of long range hunting guys come here and miss from 200 yards. the mountain is made out of rocks but when its time to shoot, there is no rock to shoot off.
and then there is the issue of going to where the animal was to colecting it. that on its own is extreme and very dangerous sometimes.

 

[Bravo 4]

View attachment 86329 l sometimes forgets how easy positions some of you guys shoot from. l have never been abel to shoot from porn position in my life.

I've never shot from a porn position either.
Is this it?

 

[Bravo 4]

Just kidding of course.
I can see how your environment/terrain can dictate your range limitations.
And yeah sometimes it is easy for me. I set myself up that ways in certain places. I shot my whitetail buck this year at over 400 yards, took me all of about 5 seconds to get behind the gun (in the prone), adjust my turret for the range, and drop him. Took longer to get the camera-spotter on him to try and video.

 

[soundwaves]

I've never shot from a porn position either.
Is this it?

lol. miss spelt. sory haha

 

[soundwaves]

Just kidding of course.
I can see how your environment/terrain can dictate your range limitations.
And yeah sometimes it is easy for me. I set myself up that ways in certain places. I shot my whitetail buck this year at over 400 yards, took me all of about 5 seconds to get behind the gun (in the prone), adjust my turret for the range, and drop him. Took longer to get the camera-spotter on him to try and video.

its not so much the limitations but it like : kill an animal at 1000m, now what ? lm not gona climb up there to get it.
full respect to those of you WHO shoot at very long distances. shure makes great you tube hunting videos.

 

[Bravo 4]

its not so much the limitations but it like : kill an animal at 1000m, now what ? lm not gona climb up there to get it.
full respect to those of you WHO shoot at very long distances. shure makes great you tube hunting videos.

Been there as far as the animal recovery goes. I shot a bull elk in some nasty (steep) terrain and packet it out myself. It was horrible, but worth it. I'll do it again if a ever find where they are hiding! Gotta get em where they are.
As for videos, none of mine will make it to YouTube. They are horrible, trying to film through a spotting scope and shoot an animal whilst solo is quite the chore.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I find longrange hunters to be far more considerate of the game we seek than the average hunter out there.

Most of us have spent more than a decade honing our skills and learning our own limitations and won't take a shot unless we're completely confident that in doing so we're going to make a quick, clean, humane kill.

Conversely I've seen far too many examples of people just flinging lead to "see if I can make it" among the "average hunter" crowd.

When I see guys who are convinced they are "sighted in" because they can hit a 12x16" piece of paper at 50-100yds at the range heading out to hunt it pretty well turns my stomach and I've seen a whole lot of them.

I like to refer to those people as "Elmer Fudds".

 

[WildRose]

l sometimes forgets how easy positions some of you guys shoot from. l have never been abel to shoot from porn position in my life. because all the hunting situations lm in. the animal is always at a steep angle. last shot l took was at 450 meters, and l was basicly crouched down on one leg and the other leg was not tuching the floor in order to aim at the animal from the only decent rock l found. it wasnt decent by any means 99% of the time l can not watch the animal for longer than a minute from my scope because the positions are so awkwerd that my arms legs back start ackeing after a few seconds. dificultys of hunting ibex compared to deer l guess.
l have seen loads of long range hunting guys come here and miss from 200 yards. the mountain is made out of rocks but when its time to shoot, there is no rock to shoot off.
and then there is the issue of going to where the animal was to colecting it. that on its own is extreme and very dangerous sometimes.

Finding a flat spot in your neck of the woods is about as common as finding beachfront property in mine.

Personally I've found very few opportunities to shoot prone in the field unless I just happen to be hunting a wide open wheatfield.

 

[VLD Pilot]

I think you might be drinking the wrong kool-aid thinking that "the .308 Win aint exactly a long range cartridge given ballistics"...

Modern rifles and components have proven that narrative wrong, and beyond a certain yardage, despite the slower speed off the line, with the right bullet and powder, the .308 Win will catch and surpass the 6.5 Creed in both velocity and KE. But, you are correct that up until a certain yardage, the 6.5 Creed is flatter and faster...But it will get overrun by a .308 Win shooting a 210 or 215 Berger at ~2,500 fps MV, at a certain yardage.

Not sure your right on target with that "fact" ! The 308 does not surpass drop OR velocity of the 6.5 Creedmoor running a 147 eld at 2750 fps. Out to 2000 yards the Creedmoor drops less and still has more velocity. Yes, the 308 does have more energy at the longer ranges. It's tough to compare the 6.5 to a 308 when even if the BCs are close, velocities are not. Wind will eventually fail the 147 at extended ranges where the 215 will pull thru better. The 308 IS a long range cartridge but is NOT an extreme long range cartridge.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Not sure your right on target with that "fact" ! The 308 does not surpass drop OR velocity of the 6.5 Creedmoor running a 147 eld at 2750 fps. Out to 2000 yards the Creedmoor drops less and still has more velocity. Yes, the 308 does have more energy at the longer ranges. It's tough to compare the 6.5 to a 308 when even if the BCs are close, velocities are not. Wind will eventually fail the 147 at extended ranges where the 215 will pull thru better. The 308 IS a long range cartridge but is NOT an extreme long range cartridge.

Oh, so now we're shooting 2,000+ yards with the Creedmoor...This just gets better and better.

Also, ballistics on an honest dope chart pushing a .691 G1 BC 215 Hybrid at 2,500 FPS from a 24" barrel, vs. a .697 G1 BC 147 ELD-M at 2,695 (Hornady factory Match ammo velocity from a 24" barrel) is not exactly going make the 6.5 braggedly better at long range. The charts are not that far off, like I stated previously.

Here's my calculations that I come up with... 100 yard zero, 2000 yard max. 10 MPH 90º wind value.

.308 Win - 215 Berger Hybrid @ 2,500 FPS MV.

100 - 2,380 FPS / Drop - 0.0" / Drift - 0.6"
1,000 - 1,461 FPS / Drop - 362.5" / Drift - 66.4"
2,000 - 961 FPS / Drop - 2,479.5" / Drift - 319.3"

6.5 Creedmoor - 147 ELD-M @ 2,695 FPS MV.

100 - 2,567 FPS / Drop - 0.0" / Drift - 0.5"
1,000 - 1,577 FPS / Drop - 308.8" / Drift - 61.1"
2,000 - 989 FPS / Drop - 2,154.0" / Drift - 305.3"

This means that at 1,000 yards, there is only a 53.7" drop difference, and 5.3" wind drift difference. For 1,000 yard shooting, that's fairly close considering what you're comparing, and the initial velocity difference.

You're right about one thing, the .308 Win is not an ELR cartridge, I never said it was. But the little 6.5 Creedmoor is also NOT an ELR cartridge. Look at the chart, the numbers don't lie. When you step up to things with 70+ grain powder charges and 7mm and larger (195+ grain) bullets, being pushed over 3,000 FPS MV, then you are stepping into the realm of ELR cartridges.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Oh, so now we're shooting 2,000+ yards with the Creedmoor...This just gets better and better.

Also, ballistics on an honest dope chart pushing a .691 G1 BC 215 Hybrid at 2,500 FPS from a 24" barrel, vs. a .697 G1 BC 147 ELD-M at 2,695 (Hornady factory Match ammo velocity from a 24" barrel) is not exactly going make the 6.5 braggedly better at long range. The charts are not that far off, like I stated previously.

Here's my calculations that I come up with... 100 yard zero, 2000 yard max. 10 MPH 90º wind value.

.308 Win - 215 Berger Hybrid @ 2,500 FPS MV.

100 - 2,380 FPS / Drop - 0.0" / Drift - 0.6"
1,000 - 1,461 FPS / Drop - 362.5" / Drift - 66.4"
2,000 - 961 FPS / Drop - 2,479.5" / Drift - 319.3"

6.5 Creedmoor - 147 ELD-M @ 2,695 FPS MV.

100 - 2,567 FPS / Drop - 0.0" / Drift - 0.5"
1,000 - 1,577 FPS / Drop - 308.8" / Drift - 61.1"
2,000 - 989 FPS / Drop - 2,154.0" / Drift - 305.3"

This means that at 1,000 yards, there is only a 53.7" drop difference, and 5.3" wind drift difference. For 1,000 yard shooting, that's fairly close considering what you're comparing, and the initial velocity difference.

You're right about one thing, the .308 Win is not an ELR cartridge, I never said it was. But the little 6.5 Creedmoor is also NOT an ELR cartridge. Look at the chart, the numbers don't lie. When you step up to things with 70+ grain powder charges and 7mm and larger (195+ grain) bullets, being pushed over 3,000 FPS MV, then you are stepping into the realm of ELR cartridges.

Look I'm not belittling the 308. I own a few. I do not own a 6.5 Creedmoor but do own a few other 6.5 variants. It's just tough to beat the 6.5 for range due to the higher velocities and high BCs. I shot my 308 with 185 vlds out way beyond 1000 yards on ground hogs and they did so well, I never needed a 6.5 or 7 mm cartridge. Just stating facts. You mentioned the 308 out performs the 6.5 in velocity and energy. It does in energy slightly of course but wind, drop and velocity it does not. No it's not an ELR round and it's definitely not a 2000 yard round. That range only shows that the 308 does not take over in velocity thoughout the 100-2000 yard distance. No offense because I favor the 308. I'm not a Creedmoor fan. I just shoot the 6.5-284 and .260 AI often enough that I know it out performs my 308s beyond 800 yards hands down. The Creedmoor is closer than the 6.5s I shoot to the 308 but it's close enough to call it **** near a toss up.

 

[Bowfishn]

We should probably throw in real world velocities with the 147 ELD-M out of a 10BA Stealth 6.5 Creedmoor with a 24" barrel and not the Hornady Factory. I see we are not using 308 factory rounds.
I got almost 2900 fps with load testing for accuracy and ES, but settled on the load that averaged 2850 fps, as a fast miss does not count.
So you should move your starting point up 155 fps for the Creed.
I am not the only one that does not use Hornady Factory Ammo.