Loaning a suppressor on private property?

[hunter67wa]

Well I doubt the majority of people here will have the ability to defend you in court. So most are opinions and great ones from our LEO's and attorney. Bottom line is.

Go ask your attorney who will defend you!

 

[SealT5]

First of all. I have not broken the law in any way. I simply asked a question that has been answered multiple times. Thank you to those of you that didn't turn this into a rabbit hole.

Ive owned suppressors, along with a trust, most of my adult life. I have quite a few trustees but only under one instance has any of my items been out of my supervision.

Here's a tip. I store all of my original tax stamps and trust paperwork inside of a fireproof box inside of a 1.5 hour safe. I have multiple paper copies of the trust and a pdf file. For my stamps I take them to my local office supply store and have them print and laminate 4 front & back copies on one piece of paper. They are completely legible. That is what i keep on me at all times. I store copies in my gun cases and stock packs. Works for me

I have several game warden buddies. I love hearing their stories. Especially the ones where people try to tell them what they can and cannot do!

Merry Christmas everyone.

Joe S

 

[sturner]

First of all. I have not broken the law in any way. I simply asked a question that has been answered multiple times. Thank you to those of you that didn't turn this into a rabbit hole.

Ive owned suppressors, along with a trust, most of my adult life. I have quite a few trustees but only under one instance has any of my items been out of my supervision.

Here's a tip. I store all of my original tax stamps and trust paperwork inside of a fireproof box inside of a 1.5 hour safe. I have multiple paper copies of the trust and a pdf file. For my stamps I take them to my local office supply store and have them print and laminate 4 front & back copies on one piece of paper. They are completely legible. That is what i keep on me at all times. I store copies in my gun cases and stock packs. Works for me

I have several game warden buddies. I love hearing their stories. Especially the ones where people try to tell them what they can and cannot do!

Merry Christmas everyone.

Joe S

Merry Christmas to you and yours too

 

[Gcan]

According to ATF , the can must be under your direct supervision/control



Im pretty certain Weiserbucks is right. So unless you are hunting with your friend, or u put him/her on your trust, it is exactly the same as loaning him your full auto MP5. Its not like loaning a car at all. Good lord! A can is a federally permitted/regulated NFA item that requires a tax stamp. Considering that you will get 3 different answers to the same question from 3 ATF agents and also, that only a letter froM the ATF OFFICE constitutes a legal decision you may rely on, and also that such a letter takes months to get, the rule, as explained to me is exactly what Weiserbucks says. And if not, do you really want to spend $20k on lawyers staying out of jail?
Due to the enormous cost of being wrong, do not take advice or an opinion from anyone where NFA items are concerned. if someone tells u don't Do it, they may be wrong but you won't go to jail. Get a letter from ATF or check their site to see if they have ruled on this. im betting they have. Print the ruling and keep it handy.

 

[Gcan]

First of all. I have not broken the law in any way. I simply asked a question that has been answered multiple times. Thank you to those of you that didn't turn this into a rabbit hole.

Ive owned suppressors, along with a trust, most of my adult life. I have quite a few trustees but only under one instance has any of my items been out of my supervision.

Here's a tip. I store all of my original tax stamps and trust paperwork inside of a fireproof box inside of a 1.5 hour safe. I have multiple paper copies of the trust and a pdf file. For my stamps I take them to my local office supply store and have them print and laminate 4 front & back copies on one piece of paper. They are completely legible. That is what i keep on me at all times. I store copies in my gun cases and stock packs. Works for me

I have several game warden buddies. I love hearing their stories. Especially the ones where people try to tell them what they can and cannot do!

Merry Christmas everyone.

Joe S

Exactly right. I do pretty much the same.

 

[Buck1970]

ST4

Please please do not take it as I were insinuating that you had broken any law.
That was not my intention.
It's purely speculation on what could happen.

Personally, I'm sitting in a deer stand with my non suppressed SAVAGE MSR10 Longrange 6.5 with factory hornady 129 grain white tails.
My belly full of ham, mashed potatoes and pecan pie.

It's 72 degrees and life could not get any better. Worst thing that could happen is the warm sunlight puts me to sleep.

y'all have a great rest of Christmas and a good new year.
I'm looking forward to more and more reading.

may the Good Lord bless you all.

 

[ADHD]

Letter of the law explanation on under owners supervision ,can go so far as to having suppressors in a room , not in a safe or under lock and key , that others can easily access. As in an unlocked room of your house ,where others reside that are not on the trust for suppressor . And as far as easily adding people to trust at any time simply by filing addendum , that ship has sailed as well. Now , any individual being added to a trust ,must complete same background check as original person. They pretty much did away with a lot of the GOOD parts of having a trust , such as sharing between friends ,simply by adding them to trust .
I am a class 07 manufacturer with 02 SOT , AND have been through 4 intense audits with ATF ,including one that bordered on harassment ,which took 3 months , and ended with myself and Joshua Prince ,going in front of The Who's who of the eastern ATF in Philadelphia ATF ,for a possible revocation over clerical errors only . Very eye opening due to how the different class FFLs are charged when violations occur, such as a retail FFL can have several of the same violations and be cited for one , but being a manufacturer ,each violation counts as one ,wether the same or different , so my A&D books having hash marks between top fully completed and bottom fully completed entry for where transferred from , when receiving multiple guns from same place ,counted as repeat violations ,which brings up possible revocation process.
Only saying all of this to make point that even among FFLs , there will b different answers ,due to different class FFLs. I can legally manufacture and possess pretty much anything up to but not including explosives as currently licensed. But I have to dot every I, and cross every T on paperwork ,or it's my ***. So I sent several hundred guns to auction and now order guns for customers ,do drawings ,and just build ,customize and gunsmith, so that there is less chance for errors as most are on the 4473s anyways . But definitely ILLEGAL to loan unless with person entire time , and to those thinking can still just write in someone on their trust , ya best check up on that as it most definitely changed last year

 

[Battering Ram]

I had a warden talk to me for awhile during our rifle season this year he was a highway patrol retired before a warden he told me that they can't check any thing you have in house or vehicle with out a warrant that they just play people that don't know the laws I told him I had always understood federal was different but he said they have the same regs to follow as any law enforcement. David

absolutely correct. Read your 4th Amendment right about illegal search and seizure.

 

[KY_Windage]

And as far as easily adding people to trust at any time simply by filing addendum , that ship has sailed as well. Now , any individual being added to a trust ,must complete same background check as original person. They pretty much did away with a lot of the GOOD parts of having a trust , such as sharing between friends ,simply by adding them to trust .

This is a confusing area, but I am pretty sure you are wrong there. You definitely have to file the application with ATF and get the background check for anyone you PLAN to have as a trustee or other "responsible person," and you have to do it with the initial transfer application, because you cannot submit people to ATF for approval in any way except with an application for transfer.

However, ATF on its "FAQ" page plainly states that responsible persons may still be added to a trust, etc., without a background check, as was done before the law change, and it is not simply an out-of-date web-page because they also discuss the new changes.

As I said, it is confusing but to me the logical reconciliation of these apparently contradictory statements by AFT is that is you may add someone after the transfer has been approved, meaning without a background check, provided you did not plan on or anticipate adding them at any time before the transfer was approved, and they otherwise qualify (not a felon, etc.). However, I would advise against engaging in "close calls." I would not add anyone shortly after I got the stamp, and I would not add a member of my immediate family unless they were a minor who had turned 21 after the transfer approval. I would not write anyone in later who I had even talked to about sharing possession with.

If ATF thinks you anticipated adding someone (other than a minor) at the time of application for transfer but you did not have them file for a background check, you may be spending your net worth on a criminal defense attorney. And you may be going to prison anyway.


The purpose of 41F seems to have been to criminalize subterfuges -- where someone who can pass a background check obtains a device through a trust and then writes in his buddy or relative who cannot pass a background check. But remember, just because the person you are writing in could pass a background check does not mean you get a pass if you write them in later. The new law requires that all known responsible persons submit applications and get background checks at the time of the transfer application, period.

It does not appear to outlaw the writing in, after transfer, of people you did not anticipate making a responsible person at any time before approval of the transfer.

HTH

 

[keithcandler]

This is NOT something that you screw around with. Don't loan the can to anyone!

You know what happens when you assume!!!???

 

[Greta06]

Since osama changed the law on his way out of office, we now need photo id and fingerprints for all adults on the trust. So its not that simple to just add someone to your trust. I wouldn't worry too much about what happens on your property, would i allow the items to leave, absolutely not. Ive heard some good stories from one of the largest mg dealers in the country, i dont think the atf or police care as much as you guys think. How many times have you heard of people being arrested except for those who are complete morons building illegal items. Ive never been asked to show paperwork or had any issues but i also dont go to public ranges. Everything i have read says only atf agent or attorney general has the authority to see your paperwork. Would i chance it if asked probably not. Merry Christmas!

 

[J3n]

And as far as easily adding people to trust at any time simply by filing addendum , that ship has sailed as well. Now , any individual being added to a trust ,must complete same background check as original person.

This is not completely correct. For example, when using SilencerShop's single shot trust you can easily add trustees after approval. Yes, if you apply with a trust and multiple trustees then they must all submit fingerprints and have BG check. But at least with the SS trust, you can apply with one person on the trust and then add/remove trustees once for stamp comes back.
https://www.silencershop.com/blog/post/single-shot-trust/

No more gathering up all your trustees, taking a trip to the notary, scanning everyones prints, emailing/faxing the trust back to us, and so forth… All you need to do is digitally sign the document and we will send it to the ATF on your behalf. This simple setup allows you to add trustees and responsible parties after you receive approval, to take advantage of the long-term benefits offered by registering as a trust without the hassles of initial set up.

 

[PApa Black]

According to ATF , the can must be under your direct supervision/control.

You are 100% correct.

 

[freddiej]

Well, here is what I know and it is very little. Also here are the examples of what I cringe to relay. To be very blunt: I am not a lawyer, I am not law enforcement, I am just a gunsmith and full auto/suppression enthusiast. I do not know as much as a lot out there. I just gave up my dream of NFA stuff after talking to the ATF and getting scared to death by the things the ATF would do to me if I owned any class 3 stuff.

in Texas they have night time pig hunts with what I like calling God's gift guns. they are semi-auto and fully auto suppressed, rifles with thermal or night vision (AR-10's, M-14's/M-1A's, AR-15's) .. you get to play "US Special Forces" with someone else's class 3 device. how they get away with this is totally mind blowing to me. it has been my understanding you can allow someone of your own family to use a class 3 device in your presence but that is it. second way is a NFA trust with everyone that will be able to use or have access to it.

the ATF woman I talked to several, 12, years ago told me if I get a suppressor or fully auto that I could not even allow my father or my siblings to use it outside of my direct sight and only under my supervision. evidently things have changed a bit in the last 12 years.