Lightweight steel vs carbon fiber barrels

[Edd]

A carbon fiber barrel does have one advantage. If I thought you CF barrel aficionados could handle it, I would tell you what it is.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I don't have any documentation saying that fluting does or doesn't stiffen a barrel. Just hard for me to wrap my head around removing material to make it stiffer.

Another thing I am having a hard time wrapping my head around is that the strength and stiffness of carbon being so much more than steel. If so whey would they leave the steel without carbon in the chamber area? Also why not leave just enough steel to cut rifling into to minimize the amount of steel so as to strengthen the barrel with CF? I am missing something here. Also don't get me wrong, I very much like the Proof barrels. Have a 280ai getting finished any day for myself with 22" Proof Sendero Light.

I know that in the early years of Proof there was some management that didn't want Mike Degerness there. When that management was gotten rid of then they Had Mike back. Unless something changed inside the last 12 mo that I am not aware of, he is still there. The quality of the Proof products has gone up significantly since that change in management.

 

[Gamesniper19]

S

I don't have any documentation saying that fluting does or doesn't stiffen a barrel. Just hard for me to wrap my head around removing material to make it stiffer.

Another thing I am having a hard time wrapping my head around is that the strength and stiffness of carbon being so much more than steel. If so whey would they leave the steel without carbon in the chamber area? Also why not leave just enough steel to cut rifling into to minimize the amount of steel so as to strengthen the barrel with CF? I am missing something here. Also don't get me wrong, I very much like the Proof barrels. Have a 280ai getting finished any day for myself with 22" Proof Sendero Light.

I know that in the early years of Proof there was some management that didn't want Mike Degerness there. When that management was gotten rid of then they Had Mike back. Unless something changed inside the last 12 mo that I am not aware of, he is still there. The quality of the Proof products has gone up significantly since that change in management.

Steve
Mike is no longer there. He was invited back and then let go again some months ago. Sadly - he is a good guy

I cannot speak to why barrels arent made of 100% carbon. That aside, carbon ounce for ounce is stronger than steel. It took me a bit to assimilate and believe as well. That is why aircraft, racing cars, and a multitude of other areas are specing carbon over steel, aluminum and other materials. Additionally, it is easier to work with than titanium and more cost efficient too.

 

[adam32]

Because "stronger" is a vague term...carbon fiber can't handle the pressure from the chamber like steel can. That's why every single carbon fiber barrel made is still safe to shoot if you were to take ALL the carbon fiber off of it.

Why aren't there carbon fiber muzzle brakes?

And don't get me wrong...I absolutely love carbon fiber everything...but I also know it's not "magical" like some people make it sound.

 

[Australia]

For a strictly hunting rifle? Use what you like. You should only need 1 shot, maybe 2.
If you plan on shooting strings, heavier contour or CF.

If you are walking miles up and down mountains or in 40deg heat then light weight is what you are after but as "lancetkenyon stated for a hunting rifle you only need one shot

 

[Hondo64d]

Seems like there is a whole bunch of theory here and very little bullet holes in paper data. Has no one done a test averaging the group sizes of a given number of carbon fiber barrels vs the average group sizes of the same number of steel barrels of the same contour?

John

 

[highdrum]

Seems like there is a whole bunch of theory here and very little bullet holes in paper data. Has no one done a test averaging the group sizes of a given number of carbon fiber barrels vs the average group sizes of the same number of steel barrels of the same contour?

John

There have been a few members who have tested proof cf barrels vs steel barrels of similar weight with 10 shot group accuracy. Poi shift was much less with Cf vs steel, however who shoots 10 shot groups at animals unless you in a dog town.

 

[Gamesniper19]

Seems like there is a whole bunch of theory here and very little bullet holes in paper data. Has no one done a test averaging the group sizes of a given number of carbon fiber barrels vs the average group sizes of the same number of steel barrels of the same contour?

John

I guess you missed the posts about devgru and CAG accuracy and POI shift testing. Real tests and more than just paper...the CF barrels are in theater as we write this

 

[Rich Coyle]

If I read right, a PROOF Sendero light 26inch 7mm is going to weigh in at 48oz. By comparison, what will the lightest contoured/fluted steel barrels weigh in a similar length?

I had a Christiensen 26" and a 26" Weatherby ultralight profile Pac-Nor. Both weighed 40 ounces before chamber and threads.

 

[lancetkenyon]

26" .284" Proof Sendero Light BEFORE cutting tenon, chambering, cutting off muzzle and crowning. You lose at least 6oz off that weight minimum.

 

[cjhunts_alot]

It is very well known and accepted that ounce for ounce, carbon fiber is stronger and stiffer than steel. Ok don't take PROOFs word, take the word of just one of a hundred scientists and non-shooters that research and make carbon.

As a comparison, steel has a tensile modulus of about 29 million psi (200 million kPa). Thus, the strongest carbon fibers are ten times stronger than steel and eight times that of aluminum, not to mention much lighter than both materials, 5 and 1.5 times respectively.

http://zoltek.com/carbon-fiber/what-is-carbon-fiber/

As such, any similar contour of steel will be weaker and more prone to stress and environmental (heat) variables than carbon will be. Carbon is stronger and stiffer than steel.

You're not accounting for the 40-60% resin which probably (I'm completely guessing) makes up 90% of the weight of the finished "carbon fiber" portion of the barrel. You'll need to figure out what the tensile strength of the resin is before you can accurately apply math.

 

[lancetkenyon]

I am currently removing a 27" Bartlein "Sendero" contour, which is actually .010" thinner than a Proof Sendero Light. It was 4lbs 15oz BEFORE it was cut and installed. That is 1lb 13oz heavier than the Proof Sendero Light, which actually has much more that needs cut off than a steel barrel.
See the end that completely needs removed here.


So contour for contour, Proof is MUCH lighter.
And pound for pound, a Proof CF is MUCH stiffer than a light tapered steel barrel.

I could care less about the resin content. Proof are much lighter and/or stiffer than any comparable steel. And every single one I have shot (about 20 different ones) have been tack drivers.

 

[Gamesniper19]

You're not accounting for the 40-60% resin which probably (I'm completely guessing) makes up 90% of the weight of the finished "carbon fiber" portion of the barrel. You'll need to figure out what the tensile strength of the resin is before you can accurately apply math.

You are right. The resin makes up a large portion of the barrel and I accounted for that when talking about overall barrel performance. Correct I was talking about the carbon fibers alone being 10x and should have been more clear in discussion the overall barrel strength is achieves not from solely carbon. The grade of the fibers, the way the carbon is laid, and the properties of the resin are what stiffen and cool the barrel more efficiently, it is also part of the overall tensile strength. The resin is the key to cooling and a part of the stiffness coefficient. The carbon interacts with the hardened resin and becomes the rest of the stiffness equation. Once hardened and finished you have a barrel that has similar abuse properties of most steel barrels.

 

[Gamesniper19]

I am currently removing a 27" Bartlein "Sendero" contour, which is actually .010" thinner than a Proof Sendero Light. It was 4lbs 15oz BEFORE it was cut and installed. That is 1lb 13oz heavier than the Proof Sendero Light, which actually has much more that needs cut off than a steel barrel.
See the end that completely needs removed here.


So contour for contour, Proof is MUCH lighter.
And pound for pound, a Proof CF is MUCH stiffer than a light tapered steel barrel.

I could care less about the resin content. Proof are much lighter and/or stiffer than any comparable steel. And every single one I have shot (about 20 different ones) have been tack drivers.

Agree although we CANNOT disregard the resin which is the biggest reason PROOF CF barrels are outperforming most CF from other manufacturers. The RESIN is what moves heat.
I have 11 custom rifles with PROOF barrels from 223 all the way up to 338 NM. They all are amazing and incredibly stiff and light. If they can figure out how to move heat with less Mirage...they will own the market