Lightweight steel vs carbon fiber barrels

[RockyMtnMT]

Agree with the theory of what you are saying - all barrels have the potential to walk and thinner steel has more propensity to POI shift. The hotter the metal becomes the more pliable it becomes and that is what causes POI shift.

A perfect load is perfect no matter what the thickness or composition of the barrel, what changes the POI of that perfect load is the environment and heat produced by shooting.

Fluting does reduce weight, maybe 10 - 15%. Making the barrel more asthetically pleasing. A product of the fluting is heat release and all the crazy patterns and types of fluting make saying fluting itself is the reason why a barre is or isnt stiffer is a variable that cannot be consistently relied upon, if the fluting is just a pleasing pattern.
Fluting can/does create more stiffness if done correctly and almost all fluting moves heat more efficiently due to larger metal to air surface areas. Heat release is the primary benefit for fluting a barrel, with a small amount of weight savings as a plus.

CF barrels do have mirage and comparing the mirage from a #2 to a sendero CF barrel is not a fair comparison. Too many variables.

AI and a thousand other tests have been conducted with Steel and CF barrels. They will ALL POI shift at various levels based on heat, fire rate, and too many other factors to mention here.

Do you think the same contour barrels, one fluted and one not fluted, that the fluted barrel is stiffer? I could see a fluted barrel compared to the same weight non fluted being stiffer. I can't see how removing steel from a barrel will make it stiffer than it was before it was fluted. If I am wrong let me know how.

 

[dgarrett]

The few ounces you save doing a Carbon Fiber Barrel really is no weight savings... With semi light sendero type barrels you still end up scoped with rifles that weigh 9-10lbs... The true light weight rifles as stated above ...are typically sub 7lb guns are made with pencil barrels, 1 lb stocks, titanium actions and 12 oz scopes...Shootabilty of these rifles may well have been way down the list with weight savings being the most important... The nicest thing I have found with the Carbon Barrels is the way they balance compared to the same rifle with a Sendero sized Steel barrel

 

[RockyMtnMT]

You are mostly correct. Mike Goguen, a billionaire venture capitalist, bought 5 companies and put them all together. He bought ABS, Lawrence barrels, defiance actions, lone wolf stocks, Jense precision and now bought a resin company that makes parts for stealth aircraft to improve the barrel performance and heat transfer.

Mike Degerness is no longer with them. Jeff Lawrence is no longer with them, their original marketing guy Derek is no longer with them and they have a difference CEO and VP of manufacturing than they did in 2015. Mike G's only rationale for buying it all is to develop a Automatic barrel that he can sell to the military in large numbers - at some point in the future.

The barrels produced under ABS 8 years ago have very few things in common with the barrels they produce today. The resin compound is different. The carbon fibers themselves are different and applied in a slightly different pattern. The barrel steel is different and the rifling in the barrels is different.
Its true they didnt come up with the original idea. They are attempting to, and what appears to be true today, improving greatly on the original design.

When did Degerness leave? I spoke with him there inside the last year.

 

[Gamesniper19]

The few ounces you save doing a Carbon Fiber Barrel really is no weight savings... With semi light sendero type barrels you still end up scoped with rifles that weigh 9-10lbs... The true light weight rifles as stated above ...are typically sub 7lb guns are made with pencil barrels, 1 lb stocks, titanium actions and 12 oz scopes...Shootabilty of these rifles may well have been way down the list with weight savings being the most important... The nicest thing I have found with the Carbon Barrels is the way they balance compared to the same rifle with a Sendero sized Steel barrel

Do you think the same contour barrels, one fluted and one not fluted, that the fluted barrel is stiffer? I could see a fluted barrel compared to the same weight non fluted being stiffer. I can't see how removing steel from a barrel will make it stiffer than it was before it was fluted. If I am wrong let me know how.

Is the metal material of a cold, un-tooled metal tube that has been bored as a barrel more stiff - the data would say yes. Does fluting a barrel provide benefit to a barrel given shooting parameters for most everyday shooters - yes

Based upon my research and the data contained within it, there is an ability to create a more repeatably "stiffer" barrel with fluting than non-fluting.

http://www.varmintal.com/aflut.htm

The dependency is in how you "measure" stiffness. If it is just tensile strength based on a cold barrel alone - there are a varying number of articles that talk about torsional stiffness - again, the data is based on cold material
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-a-hollow-shaft-better-than-a-solid-shaft

There are articles that talk about vibrations and how that affects metal
https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/minimizing-vibration-tendencies-in-machining

In the end is a solid metal bar stiffer than a fluted one? I prefer to say yes given the needs of my shooting. In practical application and fluted barrel, by cooling more efficiently and creating less POI Shift, we get a "stiffer" barrel

If you know of data that proves consistent or otherwise, please send it! I love learning and would enjoy reading pointed data that helps to confirm or deny what I think I know today - and tomorrow

 

[Gamesniper19]

When did Degerness leave? I spoke with him there inside the last year.

My information says he was "asked" to leave

 

[SealT5]

I'd like to offer my .02 on the whole weight debate. My shooting partner and I have two basically identical rifles. Mine has a Brux #5 barrel finished at 22" and he has a Proof barrel finished at 22". If I blindfolded you and handed you each rifle by the muzzle brake you could NOT tell me which rifle has the proof. Now, if I handed you to them where you would be holding the rifle directly beneath the magazine well there wouldn't be any debate. The brux is noticeably nose heavy while the Proof seems to balance perfectly.

I'm currently having a Proof chambered in 22 Dasher and intend to try and answer a few questions that come up regularly. Are they as accurate as a SS barrel and do they improve barrel life.

 

[packgoatguy]

If I read right, a PROOF Sendero light 26inch 7mm is going to weigh in at 48oz. By comparison, what will the lightest contoured/fluted steel barrels weigh in a similar length?

 

[KyCarl]

If you have 2 equal barrels one fluted one not. Put them in a center stand and apply equal amounts of pressure in center of each using indicators to measure deflection.
I bet the fluted one deflects more!

 

[Gamesniper19]

I'd like to offer my .02 on the whole weight debate. My shooting partner and I have two basically identical rifles. Mine has a Brux #5 barrel finished at 22" and he has a Proof barrel finished at 22". If I blindfolded you and handed you each rifle by the muzzle brake you could NOT tell me which rifle has the proof. Now, if I handed you to them where you would be holding the rifle directly beneath the magazine well there wouldn't be any debate. The brux is noticeably nose heavy while the Proof seems to balance perfectly.

I'm currently having a Proof chambered in 22 Dasher and intend to try and answer a few questions that come up regularly. Are they as accurate as a SS barrel and do they improve barrel life.

Agree with your first point around the 2 identical rifles although not sure anyone has asked me to hold rifles by the muzzle LOL - your balance point though given the specs of the rifles is spot on

Let me address the second portion. A 1/2 MOA rifle is a 1/2 MOA rifle no matter who made the barrel with what material. The caveat comes in all the other factors we have discussed that have an affect on accuracy past 1 shot or past a 3 shot group.
The data that I have seen with PROOF 300 Win mag testing is that the PROOF barrel did last longer, the gauge of lasting longer was sub MOA accuracy at a given number of shots, than a steel barrel of the same contour. By longer the data suggest about a 20-30% longer life. The rationale for this outcome was that a cooler chamber, a cooler barrel, and less harmonics causing longer term metal fatigue by using carbon wrapping that create a barrel life that is longer.

PROOF hired the old DEVGRU gunsmith to their team some years ago to help them work through the testing. Its what a company can do when they have very deep pockets and basically no budget. Not sure if he is still there but I am sure it is helping them prove out their want to create a lightweight barrel that has more military potential

 

[dirtytough]

You can build a 6lb rifle without optics with a 26" proof, TI action, and manners stock.

You can build a lighter rifle with a steel barrel. You can use a stock with a slimmer forend which will also save weight.

Since we are getting into the realm of ultralight rifles, who can accurately shoot an ultralight 700+ yards? If I had an ultralight rifle that shot 3/4-1 moa at 500 yards I would be happy. If I was wanting to shoot game at long range I wouldn't be using an ultralight. If you do limit your range you can chop some of the barrel since you don't need the velocity to kill something at the closer ranges. That will also save some weight.

I have everything except the bottom metal for a TI, Proof, Manners build. I plan on it coming in @8-8.5lbs with a Swaro X5 on it.
I also want to build an ultralight. Ti action, featherweight steel barrel, either a wildcat composites or mpi stock. Either in 6.5 ss or 25 sst.

 

[Gamesniper19]

If you have 2 equal barrels one fluted one not. Put them in a center stand and apply equal amounts of pressure in center of each using indicators to measure deflection.
I bet the fluted one deflects more!

Have you done it? If not, run it and let us know what you find.

 

[dirtytough]

If I read right, a PROOF Sendero light 26inch 7mm is going to weigh in at 48oz. By comparison, what will the lightest contoured/fluted steel barrels weigh in a similar length?

I haven't actually weighed one, but if you look on Lilja's website they have different contours listed with weights. They also have factory clone contours listed like the Kimber MA in 300wsm. Might help a little with comparing weights and contours.

 

[Gamesniper19]

You can build a 6lb rifle without optics with a 26" proof, TI action, and manners stock.

You can build a lighter rifle with a steel barrel. You can use a stock with a slimmer forend which will also save weight.

Since we are getting into the realm of ultralight rifles, who can accurately shoot an ultralight 700+ yards? If I had an ultralight rifle that shot 3/4-1 moa at 500 yards I would be happy. If I was wanting to shoot game at long range I wouldn't be using an ultralight. If you do limit your range you can chop some of the barrel since you don't need the velocity to kill something at the closer ranges. That will also save some weight.

I have everything except the bottom metal for a TI, Proof, Manners build. I plan on it coming in @8-8.5lbs with a Swaro X5 on it.
I also want to build an ultralight. Ti action, featherweight steel barrel, either a wildcat composites or mpi stock. Either in 6.5 ss or 25 sst.

For LR - I agree. I would not want a 6 lb rifle for ultra long range. Here is a recent build I did with GAP in 7mm-338 norma IMP with a Manners stock and a 26 inch PROOF sendero barrel all on custom machined remi style action. The rifle itself weighs about 8 lbs 12 ounces.
I have since changed the scope to a Kahles 6-24 and it now weighs a total of 10 lbs 3 ounces. If I had an LR steel barrel of the same contour and length it would likely weigh about 13 lbs. Is 2 or 3 more pounds alot on the range...nope. If I hunt with it, maybe. The rifle is a .28 shooter and there is nearly no POI shift even with high pressures that I run. The barrel is stiff enough for a Ti can and is repeatably accurate on steel at 1k over long strings of fire.
I just think its cool LOL

 

[SealT5]

Good info. Thanks. I meant hold them right below the muzzle brake or grab them by the buttstock. Same outcome.

Agree with your first point around the 2 identical rifles although not sure anyone has asked me to hold rifles by the muzzle LOL - your balance point though given the specs of the rifles is spot on

Let me address the second portion. A 1/2 MOA rifle is a 1/2 MOA rifle no matter who made the barrel with what material. The caveat comes in all the other factors we have discussed that have an affect on accuracy past 1 shot or past a 3 shot group.
The data that I have seen with PROOF 300 Win mag testing is that the PROOF barrel did last longer, the gauge of lasting longer was sub MOA accuracy at a given number of shots, than a steel barrel of the same contour. By longer the data suggest about a 20-30% longer life. The rationale for this outcome was that a cooler chamber, a cooler barrel, and less harmonics causing longer term metal fatigue by using carbon wrapping that create a barrel life that is longer.

PROOF hired the old DEVGRU gunsmith to their team some years ago to help them work through the testing. Its what a company can do when they have very deep pockets and basically no budget. Not sure if he is still there but I am sure it is helping them prove out their want to create a lightweight barrel that has more military potential