Let them walk.

[Radman]

We in the UK do things in a slightly differant way we tend to not shoot the quality deer and leave them to breed.
I have just taken on a new lease in South west Scotland which is about 600 acres and one day last week the farmer saw 47 red deer in one of his corn fields.
He was not happy.
Last Saturday I shot three 2 year old Red Deer and the guy I was with shot an elderly Roe Buck, a good cull animal, the deer on the farm are not good quality as the poor deer have been breeding with the good animals, and there are far to many.
We will continue culling out the dross until we end up the a good group of deer.
THe farm is only stock fenced so the deer are free to come and go as they like, we have 3 types of deer Red, Roe and Fallow in 3 differant colours.
We estimate we have somewhere between 80 to 100 deer on 600acres we will reduce this to 60ish hopefully and improve the quality.

Your way makes more sense to me.

 

[Gibbshooter43]

My dad was taught by his dad, and he in turn taught me. There were very few deer available in our area so my first deer was not taken till I was in my late teens. It wasn't a trophy by any means but I was proud and my dad was proud of me. Spin the clock ahead and I taught my son and we now lived in a location with a much better population of deer. When he took his first buck my pride was running wild and his deer was a nice 3x3 Washington blacktail. Now my son is teaching his son the joy of ethical hunting. His first deer was a 3x2and he was 8. This past season he took a 4x5 Blacktail and a 5x5 bull at 8 years old. And I'm as proud of my son and grandson as I was of any deer I ever shot. That's 5 generations of hunters taking what their environment offered and passing the joy and privilege of a tradition shared in the family lineage. Amen.

 

[Radman]

There's quite a few of you that will read this post and you'll just get mad and try to tell me how it is. Cool, you do that. I will hit "ignore" on every one of you without hesitation. If you want to disagree, you better do so in a manner befitting a Christian. Fact is, I have almost nothing in common with most "hunters" these days, and I'd rather be disliked by all of them than be "popular" among that crowd.

This post is for the rest of you. The guys that are trying to be good responsible sportsmen that know how to manage our resources.

My request is this: Learn how to score on the hoof. Stop shooting immature animals. If you want food and the joy of the hunt... do it with a doe. They taste better.

That is all.

I'm out scouting for pronghorn, as I usually do this time of year. Some areas of the country you see massive pronghorn regularly. Tags are hard to get in those areas. Permission to hunt, even harder to get. They grow big there, because most hunters are kept out.

That's not true of my area. Here, there isn't much for sizable pronghorn. Fewer and fewer sizable anything, actually.

It's a sad reality when in order to foster trophy animals, hunters must be kept away. Yet, despite how sad, that is very true of many hunters. We're suppose to care... not just look for instant gratification of a kill on our vacation from our life, wife, and job.

Took this guys picture 15 minutes ago... and I know the majority of hunters would blast him if given the opportunity. Sure, he's a "nice" goat. He's got decent cutters, decent length, decent mass, and there's even some ivory there.

Though he sure doesn't have much of a curl does he? I bet he's 3yrs old is all. Next year he'll be nice. Two years, he'll be a STUD! What do you think he scores?

Now compare what you see above, to a real trophy pronghorn. Here's a 90" goat from pronghornguideservice instagram page:

Now what do you think that first goat I posted scored?

I'm talking about pronghorn here, but the same applies to every species. Just let them walk. What is the big deal? Shoot a doe for as many years as you need to foster some proper management of the species. Teach this restraint to the younger generation. If you don't, then $10,000+ per hunt guides will be the only place any of us get to hunt a real trophy. You can very likely still do all the things that are important to you on your hunt without shooting an immature buck.


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I agree. I don't take anything you said personally.
I have let some nice deer pass because of their potential. But that's just me.

 

[levers4life]

It took me 48 years to get to Montana to hunt. A lifelong dream of mine. I took an Antelope in 2020 and a Mulie the next year. Still the best two hunts of my life since my grandfather passed and I was able to hunt with him. My antelope and my mule deer hang on my office wall. Nether would be a "trophy" by your standards.
I got to hunt with my best friend, hang outdoors for 8-10 days straight, see some beautiful country and came home with memories and the desire to make more.
I'm glad we live in a free country where ideas can be expressed openly. Opinions are like a holes, everybody has one and they all stink. To each their own.
I'll be the guy dragging my tiny "trophy" and having a hell of a time. Y'all have a good one.

 

[TX Badger]

There is a "Buck Management" program in many areas. You cant keep the "Bucks" with not the good genetics keep breeding and getting the same results. Smaller Racks and or Body. Sometimes you need to "Thin Out" the herd and take out some blood lines so the Stronger Bigger Bucks can breed and the Does produce better Bloodlines. Can't let every Buck walk and expect them to get bigger every year. If the Buck doesn't have the Genetics Ain't Gona Happen no matter how long or years you let them grow.
Just an opinion.

While it is true that deer with lesser genetics may never become monsters, it is not possible to tell this until they have a little age. A late fawn from the year before may be a small bodied spike or fork at 1.5 and not catch up and show his true potential for a couple years. Also, I have spoken with people who have studied genetics and it is not to manage the genetic pool in free ranging animals. In a high fence setting, yes, but not out in the open. The simple fact that half of the genetics come from the doe's side makes this impossible unless you know which does produce small antlered deer and cull them as well. That is why you see these genetically freakish deer at the trophy factories. They track and manage the genetics on both sides.

Disclaimer: I am talking about whitetails, as that is where my experience lies. I can only assume that this can be applied to other animals.

Personally, I try to only shoot old bucks regardless of antler size. Then I know they are at least close to their max. I only shoot one every few years and that is fine. I probably go overboard and pass some deer that others say I should have shot, but I find passing deer rewarding too. How have we gotten to the point where it is all about killing something? I was taught that most of the experience is about being out in the woods.

 

[cabelasken]

Now I get more pleasure from seeing the younger generation take an animal - no matter how large or old. Memories from the trip and the fellowship are more important to me than the size of the rack. To fill the freezer I do a cow elk hunt that has an 80%+ success rate and even that hunt has fond memories.

 

[tim2446]

I really liked this. Thank you.

I guess this gentleman is a liberal hunter. if it's not my way everyone else is wrong.
If you don't think he's big enough don't shoot.
We have a 4 year old 8 point minimum on our hunting club. My brother passed away but his last hunt with his grandson shot a 2 year old 4 point we all got to bloody him and hi five this kid. Kid still brings it up with a smile. Reminding me it's about the hunt not the horns. a great hunt is a great hunt. Shoot what you like I'm pulling for you and good luck.

 

[LVJ76]

Romans 14:1-23
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

Amen.

 

[captrjc]

OP, I can't believe a "good Christian" would be so arrogant and judgmental. I'm so great and if you tell me I'm not…. I'll "ignore" you. I sir do not believe in silencing anyone so I will not ignore you. Please be a "good Christian" and ignore me!!!

 

[Snowboy]

There's quite a few of you that will read this post and you'll just get mad and try to tell me how it is. Cool, you do that. I will hit "ignore" on every one of you without hesitation. If you want to disagree, you better do so in a manner befitting a Christian. Fact is, I have almost nothing in common with most "hunters" these days, and I'd rather be disliked by all of them than be "popular" among that crowd.

This post is for the rest of you. The guys that are trying to be good responsible sportsmen that know how to manage our resources.

My request is this: Learn how to score on the hoof. Stop shooting immature animals. If you want food and the joy of the hunt... do it with a doe. They taste better.

That is all.

I'm out scouting for pronghorn, as I usually do this time of year. Some areas of the country you see massive pronghorn regularly. Tags are hard to get in those areas. Permission to hunt, even harder to get. They grow big there, because most hunters are kept out.

That's not true of my area. Here, there isn't much for sizable pronghorn. Fewer and fewer sizable anything, actually.

It's a sad reality when in order to foster trophy animals, hunters must be kept away. Yet, despite how sad, that is very true of many hunters. We're suppose to care... not just look for instant gratification of a kill on our vacation from our life, wife, and job.

Took this guys picture 15 minutes ago... and I know the majority of hunters would blast him if given the opportunity. Sure, he's a "nice" goat. He's got decent cutters, decent length, decent mass, and there's even some ivory there.

Though he sure doesn't have much of a curl does he? I bet he's 3yrs old is all. Next year he'll be nice. Two years, he'll be a STUD! What do you think he scores?

Now compare what you see above, to a real trophy pronghorn. Here's a 90" goat from pronghornguideservice instagram page:

Now what do you think that first goat I posted scored?

I'm talking about pronghorn here, but the same applies to every species. Just let them walk. What is the big deal? Shoot a doe for as many years as you need to foster some proper management of the species. Teach this restraint to the younger generation. If you don't, then $10,000+ per hunt guides will be the only place any of us get to hunt a real trophy. You can very likely still do all the things that are important to you on your hunt without shooting an immature buck.


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I am not sure where you are hunting but remember you probably only see less than 10% of the trophy animals on the property you hunt during daylight hours. Where I hunt deer we don't target trophy animals however for the last 50 years there has always been a new one emerge to replace the last one harvested. Regardless of which animals are harvested the key is not to over harvest as per the herd health in your habitat. Just because we have x number of tags to fill doesn't mean that we should. We have always harvested a cross section of the herd and it works.

 

[5.56×250]

I see your point and I agree , more so on the general state of society than hunting, but I appreciate the merit on that as well.
I see the lack of involvement by kids I think have our general views on life and it scares me. My own son believes he has no influence among his peers and chooses to be silent for fear of offending someone. We didn't get to were we are by being silent and we won't keep, or at this point, revive what we had if our future hope lies with complacent replacements.
From a hunting standpoint, I've evolved from brown its down to very picky to the point I haven't drawn blood in 20 years. Yes, you read that right.
I've settled into the opinion that a trophy is a personal thing. Inches of horn doesn't mean a thing to those that don't measure success by that metric. I dont think its a lie to congratulate a kid for a deer id never shoot . It took me a long time to come to this thought process. Its just a fact of life that we all think differently. There is a strong argument that measuring horns has taken a lot of the " special " out of the experience. Many people don't live to hunt . They hunt for a vacation away from their everyday life . To hold them to your standards is a little unfair .
My PERSONAL standard is a MATURE animal. I hunt whitetails in GA. I've come to realize even judging a bucks age is nearly impossible. A friend of mine shot a buck on piedmont NWR several years ago that by any visible measure was a very respectable 2 1/2 year old immature buck. It made him happy, so who was I to judge. That deer aged at 5 1/2 years old. He did the gene pool a huge favor as it turned out , but until it was aged, we all thought he wasted a future giant. Its just not that easy in reality .

 

[jessej]

I'm late to the party.
Orkan, I've watched you a long time. I think you're the real deal and I'd venture to say most of everything you have to say is on point, and you're probably a far better man than I.

Christian still only able to handle the milk.

I'd be in this category……. But I've been on milk long enough to not take offense when someone puts "meat" on the table.
Remember Orkan. There's nothin wrong with the absolute truth and I always appreciate it, but remember to offer a little milk as well so that those that aren't ready for the meat can still find nourishment.

We're living in the ruins of the country that had that... but doesn't anymore.

Not only a the country, the world.
Think Revelations…..

Unprincipled men, justifying the lack of standard among their even more unprincipled boys.

Here lies the problem, societal collapse inevitable.
Orkan, bird dog is a good guy.


And on the subject of game management,,,
Age age age. Quit lookin at their heads. Their bodys and attitudes will tell you more.

My lifetime achievement award trophy is a 6 point whitetail. Can't remember now but probably only 10" inside spread. On public land, with a bow. (Not cross bow).
Don't sound like much, right? MSU aged him at 16 years old.

 

[SmokinCrow]

What drives me nuts here is people want to blame other hunters for harvesting small bucks and therefore there's no big bucks. But did any of you actually ever think about how species are managed and who is doing the management? Depending in how the species are managed will depend on quality or even quantity of large mature bucks. It's been found that when populations are managed for large healthy populations it's beneficial for smaller bucks to be taken. Having the large healthy populations, there ends up being a good number of all age class bucks. It allows for more ability to hunt and harvest. Those looking to easily fill a tag can, and those who want to can be more selective and can find better quality bucks with pretty good success. And trophy hunters who are very selective can hunt harder and still find some trophy class bucks.

How game is managed and quality of habitat plays a role in quality of game. When you manage simply for trophy game you limit opportunities for hunting and populations. When you only remove a certain class you also remove important genetics. It's very common in areas that have Point restrictions for harvest start to have fewer point bucks that become very big. Very large 2 points for example.

Quality habitat, pressure and management play a role in quality. Can't simply blame people for shooting "immature" bucks for low trophy class populations.

 

[MW204]

I grew up fascinated with guns, my dad hunted quail and that's what I started hunting, then added dove, ducks, etc....at the ripe old age of 24 I was on my first deer lease. Where I was hunting was Lometa, Tx, the deer there were numbered in the hundreds in a single pasture. At that time in 1980 very few people shot does because, as they said-leave the seed, but I saw a problem waiting to happen. As I said most of them were does that needed to be hunted and shot and I filled all my doe tags that year, but the only buck I saw on the property that we leased was a small 4-point buck. Yes, I shot the buck and was very happy and hooked on deer hunting as it provided something other than flushing birds, which I still love, or waiting for a dove to fly by. Now 40 years later I still deer hunt, added Mule Deer, last year and I felt it was a really nice buck, was it a trophy, no I saw the trophy the day before the opener, but the next time I saw him he was 2 miles from that location. This was my first kill in Nebraska that I had hunted 4 years to get, up until this time it had been only whitetail I was going after, but hey I got lucky to draw the MD tag. Could I have shot some smaller whitetail in those other 3 years, I could have but didn't to let them grow hopefully, but who knows since they only crossed the property that I was hunting so I have no idea how the hunters on the next property felt about shooting one of them, but who am I to decide when someone shoots a legal buck?
While what you say is true, if you want bigger bucks they need to get older, and that's fine if that's your self-imposed stance and one I agree with, but I will not condemn someone for shooting a legal deer if that's their choice, but if I have the opportunity to talk to them and the size comes up I will try to educate them on what it takes to get a real trophy buck, size I'm talking about, not a trophy in their eyes. With that said you can let a buck go until it dies and some of them will never be anything but what they are at 1-3 years old such as this buck in the below pic.
I think a better route to take on this original thread would have been posting pics of a year-old buck, at 2 years, at 3 years, at 4 years, and at 5-7 years to show the difference time can make. When you step up and **** on someone's shoe you're likely to get a lot of negative reactions. My 2 cents anyway.

If left alone and not shot I wonder what this one might have grown into?

Yes, here's my Mule Deer trophy, my first, at my age could be my last, but I hope not.