Lead Poisoning

Lou270 said:
While we are saying science rules, there is no science in the claim hammers or any mono are as or more effective than lead core bullets. Actually, there is quite a bit to show fragmentation increases wounding/incapacitates more quickly if you follow wound ballistics science. The only study I have seen on game was the SC one where they clearly showed monos/tough bullets do not kill deer as quickly as the "ballistic tip" types. That is my personal experience with monos as well and why I dont use them unless want the extra penetration monos deliver.

Maybe hammers or some new designs are better but I have not seen it yet (1 hog which required a finisher with shoulder shot) nor do I take anecdotal internet testimony as "science" nor manufacters claims. So now you are asking hunters to trade off suffering in the animals they are trying to intentionally kill vs suffering in an animal they may unintentionally harm.

In any case, all you hear in these videos is hunters give nothing up using monos and a lot of folks who have used monos do not see it that way based on their field experience. Basically, If gonna say it is backed by science do the science not just science for what is convenient to your message.

Lou
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It's a brave new world with Hammer's you just need to clear your head
 
Not a lot but that is the point. You can't claim not giving anything up. Here is one that I have seen referenced in several sources


Not scientific but lines up with lot of folks experience:


www.gameandfishmag.com

Loaded for Deer: Lead-Core Bullets Remain Best Choice - Game & Fish

The best deer bullets don't have to be fancy. Here are four excellent options that anchor deer quickly.
www.gameandfishmag.com www.gameandfishmag.com

Again - make the claim. Do the science

Lou
 
xsn10s said:
Then I'd suggest vetting who you align with better. The optics are bad. As are the optics on your forum and how you describe anyone that doesn't fall inline with your claims.
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Wait a minute…we're talking optics now? 🤣

Let the record reflect that I've encountered some of the "cult mentality" with other bullet types over the years as well - Barnes and Berger come to mind especially in their respective infancies, and the price people will pay for Nosler ballistic tips which are just unbonded cup and cores with a pretty nose indicates a great deal of fandom there too. Hammers do indeed have a cult following and their creator and owner is a passionate zealot consumed by the pursuit of what he does for a living. Sometimes that does cloud judgment maybe or lead to a "conversational intensity" that some find abrasive.

But I sure do like what I've been finding with the hammers I bought so far. No hot air in the claims as best I can tell. And when I've asked about possible partial inspiration or help from other mono-makers Steve has been refreshingly truthful - this product didn't just emerge in a vacuum. Moreover I've actually "gotten into it" with him and a hammer fan or two over the last few years and have found that when I've reached out in private to clear the air after things got a bit too heated I've always been able to come away from the conversation with the impression of mutual listening and respect. Sometimes ya just need to talk to someone and not on a public forum thread.
 
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xsn10s said:
Then I'd suggest vetting who you align with better. The optics are bad. As are the optics on your forum and how you describe anyone that doesn't fall inline with your claims.
Click to expand...

Calvin45 said:
Wait a minute…we're talking optics now? 🤣

Let the record reflect that I've encountered some of the "cult mentality" with other bullet types over the years as well - Barnes and Berger come to mind especially in their respective infancies, and the price people will pay for Nosler ballistic tips which are just in bonded cup and cores with a pretty nose indicates a great deal of fandom there too. Hammers do indeed have a cult following and their creator and owner is a passionate zealot consumed by the pursuit of what he does for a living. Sometimes that does cloud judgment maybe or lead to a "conversational intensity" that some find abrasive.

But I sure do like what I've been finding with the hammers I bough so far. No hot air in the claims as best I can tell. And when I've asked about possible partial inspiration or help from other mono-makers Steve has been refreshingly truthful - this product didn't just emerge in a vacuum. Moreover I've actually "gotten into it" with him and a hammer fan or two over the last few years and have found that when I've reached out in private to clear the air after things got a bit too heated I've always been able to come away from the conversation with the impression of mutual listening and respect. Sometimes ya just need to talk to someone and not on a public forum thread.
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I want to give you a big warm hug, Calvin! :)
 
I don't recall Nosler or Berger siding a video with an organization that supports the Sierra Club or others like them. And you don't see Berger or Nosler coming on here stirring up trouble.
 
xsn10s said:
I don't recall Nosler or Berger siding a video with an organization that supports the Sierra Club or others like them. And you don't see Berger or Nosler coming on here stirring up trouble.
Click to expand...
I really am not looking to argue here (and I know I've had lots of good dialogue with you in the past and hope that doesn't change) but when both Barnes and Berger bullets were new kids on the block and so deviated from the usual controlled expansion lead core bullets that up till then were synonymous with "premium" there was some downright ugly conversation and some demonstrable "bull 💩" videos and ads published by both - "if a bullet doesn't hold together it doesn't kill" vs "if a bullet exits it didn't dump it's energy" - both piles of hogwash by the way (and both can be very effective killers that operate by different means - again, I'm not biased or partial to any brand, bullet construction, or mechanism-of-killing philosophy - heck if I had to stop a bear all my money would be on a real blunt lead cored round nose for unsurpassed "smackdown" power inside 100 yards no question)

I do know what you're referring to about hammer related threads inevitably going to pot - that's not always the pro-hammer peoples doing but sometimes it absolutely is, won't deny that. My take is that hammer is still a relatively new player in the game and they're really starting to make it big now and compete with existing players so there's gonna be controversy and it's gonna get loud. If their claims are empty and they're too deeply entrenched with the wrong people and groups the truth will be made plain at some point - and I believe that if (and when 😉) they're fully established and mainstream as any of other big names a lot of this hubbub will die down on both sides. Nobody gets particularly ****ed off about it if you use, or
Recommend, or relay a good or bad experience with a hornady interlock or Winchester power point haha…well except I guess the anti-lead people! 🤣. Oh wait, that was the original point of this thread wasn't it!!!!????? 😁😁😁😁😁

Coming full circle here…..🤣
 
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