Improving the 308 Win performance

[nralifer]

Definitely with a 150 those velocities are easily obtainable. Much safer too. I get the pushing of your product but too many guys here feel there are much better cartridges to kill Elk with at ANY range let alone 900 yards. It's not a matter of anything other than law of averages. Harvest and quick kill Percentage increases using heavier, faster and higher BC hunting bullets for this task. I'm very fond of the 308 and have used several heavy bullets with good BC numbers in it. I still wouldn't use it for an Elk hunt given there are so many better options. I'm not fond of chasing a 1000 lb wounded animal all over a mountain to hang a tag on. My fear is, that's what I'd be facing being under gunned. For deer size game out to 600+ yards, great. Even an Elk gun for 300-400 yards, maybe. Still, I have much better options. I have some BD2s for my 338 LMImp. Also some 160s for my 284.

How far you choose to shoot an Elk depends on a lot of factors as well as where you try to hit them. You definitely have the bullets to harvest them at any distance ot angle you choose. Almost all guys I know, myself included, would avoid Texas heart shots. Interestingly, I got called by one of our customers this morning. He had to take a THS on a bull Elk he had to get before it entered private land next to public land he was hunting. The bull was headed away from him. He was using the 150 Gr BD2 from his 28 Nosler and hit the bull next to to the anus and dropped it right there at 200 yds. Bullet exited just shy of the Rt shoulder. He figured it had to have been at least 3 ft of penetration. You can be sure that the 284 caliber using a high speed case is a good option for Elk as well.

 

[bert2368]

Re: pressure, velocity and mono metal bullets?

In my experience, I've had to back off due to pressure signs and use less than book max loads EVERY time I've worked up loads, so far that has shown up in .221 Rem Fireball, .223/5.56, 6.5-284 NORMA, 6.5X57 Swede Mauser, 300 BO (supersonic loads) and 30-06.

The only variety I've loaded are solid copper rifle bullets by Barnes in .223, 6.5mm and .308. Their TSX and TTSX lines in several weights.

I choose to use these bullets for their terminal effects (most particularly in 6.5mm), not because they are getting me hyper velocities. I don't usually even get them up to the max velocities I can run lead cored bullets at-

They're not as compressible, my theory. I have NOT tried "slippery" bullet coatings or other workarounds.

 

[roninflag]

30-06 , what the .308 wanted to be.

 

[mntnflyr4fun]

I quickly read through this thread so I might have missed it, but no one has mentioned wind drift. I shoot a .308 quite a bit; it is my favorite 500 yard gong rifle, and I might bring one to CO next time I drive from AZ, but I gave up on it long ago when trying to hit small targets at 700 yards and beyond. Wind is a killer.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I wonder how many rounds some of you have shot at long range in the mountainous west. It isn't the same as shooting in the Midwest or East. At 900 yards you have to estimate the wind absolutely perfectly, and it cannot change during the TOF, to hit a 10" circle at 900 yards - no matter how accurate your rifle. Unlike trying to become fit in the flatlands for a mountain hunt, there is nothing you can IMO to prepare for the shifting winds and effects of terrain than shooting in it constantly.

EXACTLY CORRECT. Not at all arrogant, in fact, I myself don't get my panties in a wad over not meeting the magic .5-.75MOA sightin criteria that seems to be mandatory with most everyone working up long range loads. I choose the bullet I believe in, get it to it's best accuracy even if that is a 1.25MOA group or thereabouts and call it good. Reason being that I believe there are too many factors in my hunting enviroment that may make my loose(r) tolerances work in my favor when my lumbering 265gr 338 bullet is making its way across/up/down the canyon. After all, I am hunting and have limited time to setup and get a shot launched after getting a legal animal located before it is gone, so who is to say that such inaccuracy may not be the very reason my bullet hits the sweet spot 900yds away instead of 6" back........

It is what happens when the bullet arrives that I am interested in. Big, heavy bullets to help compensate for a marginal arrival that also kill like a freight train when everything is perfect.

IMHO, too many hunters are believing everything their computer says should happen without realizing all that data is theoretical performace data and could only, possibly, maybe......... be achieved in a test barrel in a test facility under PERFECTLY controlled conditions.

Unfortunately thats not where I hunt so, for "elk at 900", I bring enough gun, take the best available shot, let the ones that are too far away get away and thats just hunting.

 

[LRNut]

EXACTLY CORRECT. Not at all arrogant, in fact, I myself don't get my panties in a wad over not meeting the magic .5-.75MOA sightin criteria that seems to be mandatory with most everyone working up long range loads. I choose the bullet I believe in, get it to it's best accuracy even if that is a 1.25MOA group or thereabouts and call it good. Reason being that I believe there are too many factors in my hunting enviroment that may make my loose(r) tolerances work in my favor when my lumbering 265gr 338 bullet is making its way across/up/down the canyon. After all, I am hunting and have limited time to setup and get a shot launched after getting a legal animal located before it is gone, so who is to say that such inaccuracy may not be the very reason my bullet hits the sweet spot 900yds away instead of 6" back........

It is what happens when the bullet arrives that I am interested in. Big, heavy bullets to help compensate for a marginal arrival that also kill like a freight train when everything is perfect.

IMHO, too many hunters are believing everything their computer says should happen without realizing all that data is theoretical performace data and could only, possibly, maybe......... be achieved in a test barrel in a test facility under PERFECTLY controlled conditions.

Unfortunately thats not where I hunt so, for "elk at 900", I bring enough gun, take the best available shot, let the ones that are too far away get away and thats just hunting.

I was on a deer hunt a few weeks ago in eastern CO. My guide was phenomenal; he spotted a deer bedded down in an open field from several hundred yards. We crept withing 450 yards and he asked me if I could shoot it from there. The wind was howling from about 11 o'clock and switching from 10 to 12. I said I could, but there was a house about 300 yards behind the deer - it looked abandoned, but we were not sure (it was a huge swath of private property). Additionally, it was so flat I wasn't confident that he measured the range correctly - I was getting anything from 177 to over 500. I was shooting a 300 RUM - my guide said if you hit him anywhere, we will find him, but that isn't exactly my cup of tea. We decided to belly crawl and we got about 150 yards away, where we waited 4 1/2 hours. Just before sunset, he got up and I whacked him.

I don't have a gong at exactly 450 yards at my house, but I do have one at 400 and 620 (10"x12"). I can't remember the last time I missed at 400, but like you said, there are a lot of factors in real life hunting situation that made me opt for getting closer, not the least of which was if I wounded that deer and didn't recover it, my hunt was over. On the first day of a $10,500 hunt, that shot was a bit too far. My guess is most of us on this site taking long range pokes are DIY hunts, and wounding an animal is not going to result in a punched tag. But like it or not, the long-range craze has resulted in a lot of wounded animals, and guides and outfitters are making those who wish to take such a shot forfeit their hunt should they wound an animal and not recover it.

 

[VLD Pilot]

I was on a deer hunt a few weeks ago in eastern CO. My guide was phenomenal; he spotted a deer bedded down in an open field from several hundred yards. We crept withing 450 yards and he asked me if I could shoot it from there. The wind was howling from about 11 o'clock and switching from 10 to 12. I said I could, but there was a house about 300 yards behind the deer - it looked abandoned, but we were not sure (it was a huge swath of private property). Additionally, it was so flat I wasn't confident that he measured the range correctly - I was getting anything from 177 to over 500. I was shooting a 300 RUM - my guide said if you hit him anywhere, we will find him, but that isn't exactly my cup of tea. We decided to belly crawl and we got about 150 yards away, where we waited 4 1/2 hours. Just before sunset, he got up and I whacked him.

I don't have a gong at exactly 450 yards at my house, but I do have one at 400 and 620 (10"x12"). I can't remember the last time I missed at 400, but like you said, there are a lot of factors in real life hunting situation that made me opt for getting closer, not the least of which was if I wounded that deer and didn't recover it, my hunt was over. On the first day of a $10,500 hunt, that shot was a bit too far. My guess is most of us on this site taking long range pokes are DIY hunts, and wounding an animal is not going to result in a punched tag. But like it or not, the long-range craze has resulted in a lot of wounded animals, and guides and outfitters are making those who wish to take such a shot forfeit their hunt should they wound an animal and not recover it.

Sounds like it was a great hunt. Congrats. Wounding deer has happened for centuries. As long as there are humans behind rifles, it's gonna happen. Too many that never practice at ranges they take on game. Not prepared for wind or elevation differences. Guys on these forums are the exception from the masses. Most know their limitation. I think modern technology ( range finders, flatter cartridges, better bullets ) have all helped fix much if it. It'll always happen however.

 

[tomsd]

900 yards is a long fricking way for a hunting shot - - and as a couple sage comments have noted - the wind can change a couple of times in that distance. Temp and altitude - not to mention shot angle - also affect the bullet flight - unless you are dialed in with a computer scope/app.

 

[fordy]

Look at the video on UTube 150 Bulldozer vs Blue Wildebeest. That was the first shot at an animal we took with the first generation bullets(BDs) gun used was a 20" 308Win with the 150 gr bullet loaded to 2920 fps. The animal was knocked over decisively at 482 yds and the bullet splash can be seen about 100 yds beyond. Up to that point I had used a 300 WSM with 180 gr lead core bullets in Africa and had not seen results like that seen in the video at any distance. The rest of the trip was the same way. DRT single shot kills on 6 other animals with complete penetration and no bullet recovery which included a longitudinal head shot on a Bush Pig at 40 yds that went through the entire length of the pig (42" after penetrating the skull). About 10 years before I shot a feral hog at 35 yds same longitudinal head shot at a deer feeder with a 150 gr 270 Win going 2970 fps MV and the bullet did not go much beyond mid chest , about 30" penetration but it had completely shattered by that point.

The BD2 line has improved BCs and a hollow point design that opens reliably at 1700 fps impact velocity (200 fps slower than the BD line) The copper alloy we use is the same. The BD2 line outperforms lead core and other copper bullets of the same weight in terms of BC effective range and terminal penetration.
Working on it today. Weather finaly above 0 and wind died down no snow

Gday nrailer thanks for the reply
I watched the video & this gives me more questions than answers for which you still haven't described how your bullet & monos in this style kill more effectively over c&c
First let's get into that blue
Yes I've shot my fair share of them & understand how tough they are & the video looks good but let's delve deeper so the new comers don't get that oh wow & go out expecting the same results as most likely hood it won't happen

So where was the shot placement & what it took out ( I can't see clearly on my phone but looks like a cns to me on animal movement)

Was this a cns hit
The wound channel diameter & length
Impact velocity
Surely you have pictures you can attach

Once this Is answered & getting back to your claims of 900 with a 308 I saw the pictures of the recovered pills from gel & while I'm not a fan of gel because it dosent run I would like to see the gel pictures as to the permanent cavity your pill caused as this will show @ your low impact threshold of 1700 your pill will not be as good as a good c&c @ various resistances eg shoulder to between the ribs etc & this is where you need to explain with a lot more detail than just a exit as a true solid like a fmj or the impala bullets will do that



Why we are @ it Let's talk wound channels at ea velocity impact so 1700 would be a good start not bc as bc is only good @ gaining a higher impact not creating a better wound channel ( yes a higher bc gives you increased velocity impact @ a certain range not disputing that )

Facts please would be appreciated in comparison of a good c&c @1700 vrs yours @ 1700 or any other information
Cheers

 

[Crockett12]

The 150 gr BD or BD2 with 49 gr of Leverevolution going 2920 fps from a 1:10, 20"Douglas barrel in a short action rifle. The same load from a 24" Bartlein 1:9 twist barrel goes 3050 fps. This load would be a pretty decent long range Elk load to 900 yds or so.

I hate to reply to this type of thing but hopefully this one is just a slip of the keyboard -- or spell check -- or something -- because no 150gr bullet at less than 600 ft lbs of energy when 1500 ft lbs is normally considered minimum for elk, is going to be a "pretty decent elk load! Period!

I'm an older hunter (76 years old) and I see this new long range thing for hunting any game animal as being irresponsible! We owe to to the game animal to a quick kill -- not a gut shot animal to die in agony somewhere because we wanted to be able to brag about our long range shot! And certainly not with a bullet that is going so slow and with so little energy when it impacts the animal that it won't expand or deliver a fatal blow. Stalking to a more reasonable distance (like 200 or 300 yards) takes skill too!

 

[mntnflyr4fun]

I was on a deer hunt a few weeks ago in eastern CO. My guide was phenomenal; he spotted a deer bedded down in an open field from several hundred yards. We crept withing 450 yards and he asked me if I could shoot it from there. The wind was howling from about 11 o'clock and switching from 10 to 12. I said I could, but there was a house about 300 yards behind the deer - it looked abandoned, but we were not sure (it was a huge swath of private property). Additionally, it was so flat I wasn't confident that he measured the range correctly - I was getting anything from 177 to over 500. I was shooting a 300 RUM - my guide said if you hit him anywhere, we will find him, but that isn't exactly my cup of tea. We decided to belly crawl and we got about 150 yards away, where we waited 4 1/2 hours. Just before sunset, he got up and I whacked him.

I don't have a gong at exactly 450 yards at my house, but I do have one at 400 and 620 (10"x12"). I can't remember the last time I missed at 400, but like you said, there are a lot of factors in real life hunting situation that made me opt for getting closer, not the least of which was if I wounded that deer and didn't recover it, my hunt was over. On the first day of a $10,500 hunt, that shot was a bit too far. My guess is most of us on this site taking long range pokes are DIY hunts, and wounding an animal is not going to result in a punched tag. But like it or not, the long-range craze has resulted in a lot of wounded animals, and guides and outfitters are making those who wish to take such a shot forfeit their hunt should they wound an animal and not recover it.

Sounds like you made a great decision, congratulations on your success, need more sportsman like yourself.
Unfortunately too many would have taken the 450 shot with a .223 or a CM or some such. I am not against long range hunting, I do it myself. What I am against is hunters thinking that they need light/fast/flat/no recoil and so are moving to under powered calibers for their LR shooting on big game. (as noted by OP, .308 at 900yds)

In todays LR game, I see it waaaay differently than most. A few years ago, acquiring a high quality tactical type scope was unaffordable for the masses. Flat shooting calibers were needed along with what it took to get there, light bullets and tons of speed included......

Today, things have changed so dramatically in the Optics world making inexpensive high quality MOA/MIL reticles and turrets very affordable. I recently purchased a new scope with FFP, 4x-16x, MOA reticle, multi-turn turrets and zero stop for $400 and it is fully fog/waterproof with a lifetime warranty, tracks perfectly and handles 338WM recoil with no problem.

Now that opens up the best situation for LR DRT hunting. Who cares what the drop is? Crank a turret or elevate to reticle hash and you can let fly a 250gr or 300gr or?? ....... bullet, it will arc like a WWII 16" gun on a battleship, but when it arrives, DEAD MEAT.
A heavy, well designed large cal. hunting bullet will kill fast with almost no loss of meat from high speed hydrostatic fragmenting bullets that blow whole shoulders off of game.

I am a meat hunter and will take a spike as fast as a 5pt if thats the shot......I don't care about bragging rights, I love vension , respect the animal and hate leaving it for the scavengers, the last bull I took at just under 500yds took a 250 GrandSlam thru and thru, dropped like a rock and when all the cutting was done I had less than 2.5lbs of lost meat.

250/265gr,300gr + bullets etc. etc. etc..... unless you can't handle recoil of a gun that can put DRT reliably on an elk, (then you may be not hunting the right size game) as there is no excuse or justification I can think of for using a min. cal. rifle to try and hit elk or any other trophy game at LR....IMHO

And THANK YOU to all the guides and outfitters who are punching the tag on wounded animals shot /lost by well heeled but under qualified/gunned shooters.

 

[Wachsmann]

I was on a deer hunt a few weeks ago in eastern CO. My guide was phenomenal; he spotted a deer bedded down in an open field from several hundred yards. We crept withing 450 yards and he asked me if I could shoot it from there. The wind was howling from about 11 o'clock and switching from 10 to 12. I said I could, but there was a house about 300 yards behind the deer - it looked abandoned, but we were not sure (it was a huge swath of private property). Additionally, it was so flat I wasn't confident that he measured the range correctly - I was getting anything from 177 to over 500. I was shooting a 300 RUM - my guide said if you hit him anywhere, we will find him, but that isn't exactly my cup of tea. We decided to belly crawl and we got about 150 yards away, where we waited 4 1/2 hours. Just before sunset, he got up and I whacked him.

I don't have a gong at exactly 450 yards at my house, but I do have one at 400 and 620 (10"x12"). I can't remember the last time I missed at 400, but like you said, there are a lot of factors in real life hunting situation that made me opt for getting closer, not the least of which was if I wounded that deer and didn't recover it, my hunt was over. On the first day of a $10,500 hunt, that shot was a bit too far. My guess is most of us on this site taking long range pokes are DIY hunts, and wounding an animal is not going to result in a punched tag. But like it or not, the long-range craze has resulted in a lot of wounded animals, and guides and outfitters are making those who wish to take such a shot forfeit their hunt should they wound an animal and not recover it.

Man for 10,5 that outfitter better be the one making sure the animal is not lost if he was telling you to just take the shot. Last guided hunt I went on was a mule deer hunt in WY and took a buck at broadside at 305 with 257 115 grain Berger. This hunt only cost 2800. Wind was nuts and I still had to put a second shot in him but that's hunting. Next year 2 lopes no wind one at 408 and another at 397. Both were dirt. No guide just myself and the most helpful wildlife officer I had ever met the day before. Checked my license the day before and told me all the antelope had been pushed to the far side of the unit. Pointed out which road to go in on and how fare they were hanging out. He was spot on. It was a year WY was giving doe and fawn permits out and you could get 2. Best eating antelope I have ever had also. No sage taste just good clean meat. One shot penetrated all the way through and the other was a slight more angle and the bullet stopped in the off side hide after breaking the off side shoulder. My longest shot on a deer is in Utah at 761 yards but with a 300 rum and 220 ELDX. Bullet blew up or something it did not act as it should. Still dirt on impact. ELDX bullets generally separate the copper jacket and the led core from what I have seen but they are accurate and seem to be easier to find. So that's why I shoot a lot of them. My wife has told me that she thinks I'm a shooter first and a hunter second with all the shooting and tinkering I like to do. Every gun I have is pretty much stock except for thing like beading the stock or trigger adjustment. On the RUM I had the barrel threaded and a break installed. It's a sendero so it shoot pretty good to start off with. For me i alway practice now at the longest range possible well after my load development is done. I will say this also you really need to know how you cold bore shot behaves out of you rifle to make any long range shot cause that is also key to testing and testing over and over so you are confident in you system.

 

[mntnflyr4fun]

Man for 10,5 that outfitter better be the one making sure the animal is not lost if he was telling you to just take the shot. Last guided hunt I went on was a mule deer hunt in WY and took a buck at broadside at 305 with 257 115 grain Berger. This hunt only cost 2800. Wind was nuts and I still had to put a second shot in him but that's hunting. Next year 2 lopes no wind one at 408 and another at 397. Both were dirt. No guide just myself and the most helpful wildlife officer I had ever met the day before. Checked my license the day before and told me all the antelope had been pushed to the far side of the unit. Pointed out which road to go in on and how fare they were hanging out. He was spot on. It was a year WY was giving doe and fawn permits out and you could get 2. Best eating antelope I have ever had also. No sage taste just good clean meat. One shot penetrated all the way through and the other was a slight more angle and the bullet stopped in the off side hide after breaking the off side shoulder. My longest shot on a deer is in Utah at 761 yards but with a 300 rum and 220 ELDX. Bullet blew up or something it did not act as it should. Still dirt on impact. ELDX bullets generally separate the copper jacket and the led core from what I have seen but they are accurate and seem to be easier to find. So that's why I shoot a lot of them. My wife has told me that she thinks I'm a shooter first and a hunter second with all the shooting and tinkering I like to do. Every gun I have is pretty much stock except for thing like beading the stock or trigger adjustment. On the RUM I had the barrel threaded and a break installed. It's a sendero so it shoot pretty good to start off with. For me i alway practice now at the longest range possible well after my load development is done. I will say this also you really need to know how you cold bore shot behaves out of you rifle to make any long range shot cause that is also key to testing and testing over and over so you are confident in you system.

I am surprised that a 220gr ELDX @ 761yds would come apart like that, That is good to know. My go to for years in my 338 was a 250 Grand Slam always very high weight retention and I recovered lots of bullets with perfect mushrooms. Switched to 250gr, NAB when the average shot got out to 500yds, and shot a couple, also had very high weight retention in the 500yd range, now my 500+ load uses 265NABLR. The elk are getting smarter and staying farther away from people....... Wyo. sounds like a fun hunt

 

[Txcowboy50]

In .308 caliber we make the 175 gr BD2 th a .60 G1BC, and a 195 gr BD2 bullet with a G1BC of 0.67.

What twist is the twist rate required to stabilize the bullet?

 

[Crockett12]

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