Improving the 308 Win performance

[asd9055]

Discussion like these I read I smile shake my head and make every effort to resist the urge to reply. No comment!

 

[tomsd]

This debate reminds me of the claims made about the .303 in Africa. Promoters say it killed more game than any other round. But the second part of that statement is more appropriate; the .303 wounded many times more than it killed. As a hunter and conservation officer, I've been sickened by the sight of wounded game running into the swamp or mountains, to die a slow painful death before feeding the coyotes. The .308, and for that matter the .30-06 are terrific, historic rounds. But if you plan to shoot at an elk at 500+ yards, shake the moths out of your wallet and buy a different gun! I had good luck with a .300WM but even better with a .338. Everything I shot at, 600+ yds, fell down and died. I hunted jack rabbits at 300 yards, head shots. I lent a .338 to a friend who had a history of watching big Moose disappear into the bush with a 30 cal bullet in the ribs. He shot his next 2 Moose with my .338, 500-600 yards, and considering the bullet punched a hole in both sides of the hide, there was what I'd call hunting success. Guys, stretch the small calibers at the range. But on hunting grounds have fun with a more appropriate round.

Good ole .338 - kicks like hell - both the shooter and the game. In Oregon - waaay back - early 60's - a 250 lb guy who played Offensive Tackle next to me (I was only 200 lbs at tight end) - later went from our 30.06's and 300 Savages (mainly used them for BIG Mulies but we had a few Elk in the Mountains of Southern Oregon) - to a .338 - and he even guided in Idaho. He absolutely loved it for knocking down Elk,

 

[ChrisInKY]

Let's use the .308 win. at the under 400 yd range. It kills ok at this distance.

And, hopefully, the shooter's practiced out to 400yds, too. Lots of unrecovered deer out there this season. Doubtful 'most' of the shots were further than 100yds.

 

[tomsd]

And, hopefully, the shooter's practiced out to 400yds, too. Lots of unrecovered deer out there this season. Doubtful 'most' of the shots were further than 100yds.

Funny - these days I hear about Heart/lung shots - to not waste meat? In the 50's - I was taught to shoot through the front shoulders - maybe six/eight inches below the top? Worked just fine.

 

[JamesWilson5]

I think we got a dreamer not nearly enough velocity or energy to kill ethically maybe a rat

 

[nralifer]

Gday nrailer please explain in more detail the above as
This can be misleading so let's get a few parameters into those lines like various impacts & different resistance also angles so the new to the sport don't take the above as gospel
Yep I'm going into bat for c&c as we have to be careful on recommendations like this


I'm not wanting a dog fight just show me facts & I'll eat my pie & shut my hole
If not I'll stand by what I've witnessed & this includes your bd but I've not used your bd 2 so if that's the difference from gen 1 to gen 2 I would appreciate some insights into that also on the difference between the 2 generations terminally

Cheers

Look at the video on UTube 150 Bulldozer vs Blue Wildebeest. That was the first shot at an animal we took with the first generation bullets(BDs) gun used was a 20" 308Win with the 150 gr bullet loaded to 2920 fps. The animal was knocked over decisively at 482 yds and the bullet splash can be seen about 100 yds beyond. Up to that point I had used a 300 WSM with 180 gr lead core bullets in Africa and had not seen results like that seen in the video at any distance. The rest of the trip was the same way. DRT single shot kills on 6 other animals with complete penetration and no bullet recovery which included a longitudinal head shot on a Bush Pig at 40 yds that went through the entire length of the pig (42" after penetrating the skull). About 10 years before I shot a feral hog at 35 yds same longitudinal head shot at a deer feeder with a 150 gr 270 Win going 2970 fps MV and the bullet did not go much beyond mid chest , about 30" penetration but it had completely shattered by that point.

The BD2 line has improved BCs and a hollow point design that opens reliably at 1700 fps impact velocity (200 fps slower than the BD line) The copper alloy we use is the same. The BD2 line outperforms lead core and other copper bullets of the same weight in terms of BC effective range and terminal penetration.

To hit a 6.5" circle at 1300 yds requires that your rifle shoot 1/2 MOA at 1300 minimum. With that, and assuming you hold for spin drift correctly, you have ZERO tolerance for wind error. I shoot .338 Edges and Lapuas. At 1300 yards, a 300 Berger at 2850 drifts 8.3 inches in a 1 mph wind, which means IF your rifle can shoot 1/4 MOA, you must estimate the wind with .2 mph to guarantee a hit at that distance. Oh, and that wind cannot change at all during the 1.8 second time of flight.

It's not hard?

As for the comment about wind in the Midwest being as unpredictable as the winds in the mountainous West, there is no comparison. I lived in the Midwest for a long time. Even the Arizona desert is less flat than the Midwest, but the wind there is far more predictable than Colorado mountains at 8700 feet.

This can be done with yard stick barrels. It cannot with 24" barrels.

I would still like to know the load that pushes a 175 gr bullet with 2900mv; no where in any of my manuals.

Working on it today. Weather finaly above 0 and wind died down no snow

 

[nralifer]

Funny - these days I hear about Heart/lung shots - to not waste meat? In the 50's - I was taught to shoot through the front shoulders - maybe six/eight inches below the top? Worked just fine.

Still does

 

[tomsd]

Still does

Thaanks

 

[VLD Pilot]

Look at the video on UTube 150 Bulldozer vs Blue Wildebeest. That was the first shot at an animal we took with the first generation bullets(BDs) gun used was a 20" 308Win with the 150 gr bullet loaded to 2920 fps. The animal was knocked over decisively at 482 yds and the bullet splash can be seen about 100 yds beyond. Up to that point I had used a 300 WSM with 180 gr lead core bullets in Africa and had not seen results like that seen in the video at any distance. The rest of the trip was the same way. DRT single shot kills on 6 other animals with complete penetration and no bullet recovery which included a longitudinal head shot on a Bush Pig at 40 yds that went through the entire length of the pig (42" after penetrating the skull). About 10 years before I shot a feral hog at 35 yds same longitudinal head shot at a deer feeder with a 150 gr 270 Win going 2970 fps MV and the bullet did not go much beyond mid chest , about 30" penetration but it had completely shattered by that point.

The BD2 line has improved BCs and a hollow point design that opens reliably at 1700 fps impact velocity (200 fps slower than the BD line) The copper alloy we use is the same. The BD2 line outperforms lead core and other copper bullets of the same weight in terms of BC effective range and terminal penetration.
Working on it today. Weather finaly above 0 and wind died down no snow

Definitely with a 150 those velocities are easily obtainable. Much safer too. I get the pushing of your product but too many guys here feel there are much better cartridges to kill Elk with at ANY range let alone 900 yards. It's not a matter of anything other than law of averages. Harvest and quick kill Percentage increases using heavier, faster and higher BC hunting bullets for this task. I'm very fond of the 308 and have used several heavy bullets with good BC numbers in it. I still wouldn't use it for an Elk hunt given there are so many better options. I'm not fond of chasing a 1000 lb wounded animal all over a mountain to hang a tag on. My fear is, that's what I'd be facing being under gunned. For deer size game out to 600+ yards, great. Even an Elk gun for 300-400 yards, maybe. Still, I have much better options. I have some BD2s for my 338 LMImp. Also some 160s for my 284.

 

[mdbiggerstaff]

I'm no pro but I really like the 308 and 30-06 calibers. With the new technology in bullets and powders you can make them both even better than they have continually proven in the past. Have you ever considered the A-Max or the ALCO bullets? Also, I used to chase the feet/second game but will take the accuracy and the wind drift numbers every time.

 

[VLD Pilot]

308 out performing an '06, I don't think so.

Just like a race motor, nothing replaces cubic inches, pure physics.

You can force a small
Block to run like a big block to a point. Once you max out the small block, there is still more performance to go with the BB.

Don't get me wrong, I love the 308, but it has limits.

Anyone taking a shot at a Elk at 900 yards with any 308 class round is not Ethical. I shoot two 300Rums, consider myself a above average shooter, I would not take that shot on my best day.

JMHO

This forum doesn't do Ethical. Scratch that last paragraph and your pretty spot on. Not everyone's ability is equal nor are their limitations.

 

[nralifer]

This can be done with yard stick barrels. It cannot with 24" barrels.

That is a VERY interesting result. What length barrel were you using and the powder charge and jump. Not at all questioning your results. Great job. Plays right into what I will bet trying.

 

[nralifer]

I'm no pro but I really like the 308 and 30-06 calibers. With the new technology in bullets and powders you can make them both even better than they have continually proven in the past. Have you ever considered the A-Max or the ALCO bullets? Also, I used to chase the feet/second game but will take the accuracy and the wind drift numbers every time.

For me in some calibers the A max worked well but not so much in the 308.

 

[VLD Pilot]

That is a VERY interesting result. What length barrel were you using and the powder charge and jump. Not at all questioning your results. Great job. Plays right into what I will bet trying.

I've shot 22-30" .308 Winchester barrels. I personally couldn't get over 2900 fps with 168s using less than a 28" barrel without some pressure. Those we're not monolithic bullets in my case. I won't speak to those bullets as I'm not an experienced shooter with them. Your facts are your facts. I'm not disputing what you get using solids. Only copper jacketed bullets do I have experience with in the .308.