Improving the 308 Win performance

[sea2summit]

As a general rule for the same weight bullet, because of the smaller cross sectional area you can fashion a longer thinner bullet whose BC will be higher, but the larger caliber ultimately will produce heavier bullets with much higher BCs.

Ummmm, that's not how math works? Sectional density has a diameter and mass variable, since the the mass is the numerator it must be much has to be exponentially greater than the diameter to have similar SDs. Larger calibers are capable of being heavier but it's "easier" to have high SDs come with smaller diameter projectiles than larger. Then when you consider the length portion of calculating BCs with SD input it becomes even more apparent how much weight or lighter (more expensive) material you have to add to get a larger diameter bullet to the same or greater BC requireing more powder/recoil/barrel/pressures.

 

[nralifer]

I get the whole tinkering thing. If you can find the components these days to tinker then tinker. The OP said the following about the .308 "
"This load would be a pretty decent long range Elk load to 900 yds or so." speaking about a 150gr. bullet...... When I hear nonsense like this it makes my skin crawl because of one person thinks it, another person is bound to try it and hitting an elk at 900 yds and killing said elk are two different things. Tinkering and documenting performance is a great pastime, when the leap gets made to shooting 600-800# animals in a long range hunting environment I feel obligated to comment to the contrary as needed. In my early days of shooting reloads using 180gr. '06' and 300winmag ammo, I was in on many bulls that would soak up 5 or 6 well placed shots at 350yds+ and cover lots of ground before finally succumbing. I am a big fan of tinkering and long range hunting, but hunting isn't an experiment on live targets. As stated above a .22lr will kill and elk, doesn't mean someone should be hunting with it....nuff said.

Every one has his/her's own opinion. Bullet construction and materials have everything to do with lethality assuming proper shot placement. I have a friend in town who guided Moose hunts in Alaska and he would tell me over and over how you just had to keep shooting until they fell. When I introduced him to our bullets and he started loading them for his customers he had a complete about face. I have posted two accounts of Elk being shot at well over 1150 yds where the impact velocities were around 1750 fps. and both animals dropped with one shot. The C110 alloy is tough and weight retention and penetration are extraordinarily good. Long shots with lead core bullets are fraught with erratic behavior of the bullet expansion, at virtually any distance. The only problem I see with 1000 yd shots on game with our bullets is the increased probability of error in wind calls, and long flight times during which the animal can move to throw off the impact point. That 150 gr .308BD2 is capable of out penetrating much heavier lead core bullets even of larger calibers. I know because I have experienced it. The reason is that lead cores expand too much. Big mushrooms make great marketing BS, but the fact is that the pressure at the mushroom is what determines the penetrating power and the bigger the mushrooming the more dramatic the reduction in lbs/sq" which reduces as a square function of the radius. Also the mushroom surface is smooth causing complete loss of tissue cutting due to the spin of the bullet, energy which no one thinks about but is there for use nevertheless. A kevlar vest that is able to defeat 9mm and 45ACP impacts can be defeated with a hunting bow and broad head arrow primary because the "meplat" of the arrow is so small that the penetrating pressure in lbs/sq" is extraordinarily high and the edges of the broad head cut the Kevlar fibers greatly facilitating penetration.

 

[Buffalobwana]

You want improved performance, but refuse to wildcat it?

All projectiles are governed by the laws of physics. Drag and energy specifically.

If it can be done with a 308, it has already been done. The parameters for increased performance are quite well defined.

 

[BPollard]

Why not stuff the same BD2 bullet into a 30-06 case with about 60 grains of RL19? Like was mentioned earlier, the same advancements help the -06 as much as any other any cartridge. How's the saying go? A rising tide lifts all ships

Sorry for the silly question but what are B D 2 bullets?

 

[Bang4theBuck]

This thread would be dedicated to ways to improve the performance of the 308 Win or the 7.62x51 mmBD cartridge without wildcatting the case. Experienced and innovative reloaders should find this interesting and are encouraged to participate. The 308Win is so versatile, inherently accurate and commonly used, and yet its performance in terms of MV, trajectory and speed is a bit mediocre. I am sure it can out perform the 3006. To start with I offer up my favorite hunting load I have used for the past 6/7 years in the 308Win. The 150 gr BD or BD2 with 49 gr of Leverevolution going 2920 fps from a 1:10, 20"Douglas barrel in a short action rifle. The same load from a 24" Bartlein 1:9 twist barrel goes 3050 fps. This load would be a pretty decent long range Elk load to 900 yds or so.

Can someone help me woth a better description of the bullets referred to above? What is a 'BD' or a 'BD2'?

 

[Cookie114]

Can someone help me woth a better description of the bullets referred to above? What is a 'BD' or a 'BD2'?

Badlands bulldozer and bulldozer 2

 

[Wolf76]

Nralifer.... you've earned a special spot on my "Ignore" list. This is nothing more than you trying to justify/market your bullets as the "Best" ever made. Sounds rather similar to another manufacturer on here I've ignored.

There is no "best" bullet. Many variables dictate what is optimal for the situation.

Your complete denial of physics makes you dangerous too. "Play stupid games...win stupid prizes".

I'm done. Please don't hurt yourself or anyone else.

 

[esshup]

nralifer, getting back on track to your OP, can you tell me what the psi is of the load that is pushing the 175g bullet @ 2900 fps in the .308? What powder are you using?

 

[Chas1]

When you start talking killing elk....
from experience if they are excited or alerted...... Like a whitetail deer only worse....
they can seem running on pure adrenalin juice....
and your talking going for one hell of a walk.....
Yes..... you can kill an elk with a .22 RF....
Trust me...... use enough gun and save on your legs.....
OMHO.... let the flames roll.....

+1 use enough gun

 

[LRNut]

The mid west is not exactly flat, wind is quite variable and there are many instances where the wind at the shooter is going the opposite direction at the target. Low BC bullets have more wind drift than high BC bullets. I routinely for my long range testing shoot at 1300 yds. It's not hard to hit 6-7" circles at 1300 yds with my 338. 900 yd shots are not difficult with supersonic bullets. Have had a lot of fun hitting 10" targets at 500-700 yds with subsonic 308 bullets

To hit a 6.5" circle at 1300 yds requires that your rifle shoot 1/2 MOA at 1300 minimum. With that, and assuming you hold for spin drift correctly, you have ZERO tolerance for wind error. I shoot .338 Edges and Lapuas. At 1300 yards, a 300 Berger at 2850 drifts 8.3 inches in a 1 mph wind, which means IF your rifle can shoot 1/4 MOA, you must estimate the wind with .2 mph to guarantee a hit at that distance. Oh, and that wind cannot change at all during the 1.8 second time of flight.

It's not hard?

As for the comment about wind in the Midwest being as unpredictable as the winds in the mountainous West, there is no comparison. I lived in the Midwest for a long time. Even the Arizona desert is less flat than the Midwest, but the wind there is far more predictable than Colorado mountains at 8700 feet.

 

[AntiPattern]

This thread would be dedicated to ways to improve the performance of the 308 Win or the 7.62x51 mm cartridge without wildcatting the case. Experienced and innovative reloaders should find this interesting and are encouraged to participate. The 308Win is so versatile, inherently accurate and commonly used, and yet its performance in terms of MV, trajectory and speed is a bit mediocre. I am sure it can out perform the 3006. To start with I offer up my favorite hunting load I have used for the past 6/7 years in the 308Win. The 150 gr BD or BD2 with 49 gr of Leverevolution going 2920 fps from a 1:10, 20"Douglas barrel in a short action rifle. The same load from a 24" Bartlein 1:9 twist barrel goes 3050 fps. This load would be a pretty decent long range Elk load to 900 yds or so.

I'm thinking of a few ways to improve on the 308 and there isn't much. Ammo is cheap so it's a bargain. The 6.5 Creedmoors I believe is a step up in performance but another great cartridge that hits harder with approximately the same long range characteristics is the 338 Federal. Great hard hitting round with a multitude of heavier bullets to choose from.

 

[sea2summit]

When I introduced him to our bullets

Suddenly I understand the weirdness in this thread. I'll see myself out.

 

[Reelamin]

Nralifer.... you've earned a special spot on my "Ignore" list. This is nothing more than you trying to justify/market your bullets as the "Best" ever made. Sounds rather similar to another manufacturer on here I've ignored.

There is no "best" bullet. Many variables dictate what is optimal for the situation.

Your complete denial of physics makes you dangerous too. "Play stupid games...win stupid prizes".

I'm done. Please don't hurt yourself or anyone else.

+1 You nailed it. I told myself this is a self serving marketing fire pages ago. When a fire wont stop I just eliminate the ignition source.

 

[300grains]

No doubt that 308 is good, I use Norma 202. But when I load 30-06 with Norma URP powder I get 170 f/s more speed.
Both loaded with AB 180 grains.
If animal, moose, note any difference that I don't know. But both give good kills.
Which is better ? Maybe both.