I am very dissapointed with Berger bullets regarding the 338 hybrid bullet.

[winmag]

So at least it didn't go over HIS head. The guy being shot at that is...Rich

HAHAHAHAHA That was a good one.

Thanks Edge for the description.

 

[royinidaho]

No wonder that went over my head!

I was in Rickover's Navy.

My military rifle experience other than boot camp was using an M-1 to shoot at chunks of wood simulating sharks during a man overboard drill. I was Duty IC on the bridge of a seaplane tender and the MAA handed me the M-1 and gave the order to shoot. Hell yea! Did great until reload time. That's when I got the "Thumb". I can still remember the pain..gun)

 

[Eric Stecker]

A few items of clarification. Marine Sniper has it right when he talks about the reason for a 338 cal bullet that will take high pressure (with no nose slump) for the purpose of achieving high velocity. We know that many folks will use our 338 cal bullets for game hunting however it is our specific goal to produce the best bullet for the snipers who put themselves in harms way for our benefit.

These men need a bullet that shoots as flat as possible at the highest velocities achievable. We will resolve this and produce a bullet that extends "The Beaten Zone" as far as is possible.

The vast majority of hunters will not need a bullet with this capability but they will enjoy shooting it when we resolve this issue. The key to this revised bullet will be terminal performance at short ranges. The current version is being tested and early results are encouraging. We have not concluded this testing.

We are using every resource at our disposal including high speed cameras, various media including pig carcass and bullets in several deliberate configurations so that we can clearly identify the cause and the most appropriate solution that does not sacrifice important terminal performance characteristics.

Regards,
Eric

 

[GMBshootingclubM60]

Remember that in a war, unlike hunting, the idea is to injure, not kill. An injured soldier takes lots of resources to move him and treat the injuries. The M60 was also likely to injure itself... mean time between major stoppage was less than 2000 rounds, meaning..
M60 = large, heavy club.
Yes, TET was no fun. The joke was not to worry about humping too much ammo for the '60, it would break before we used it all and the stupid M16 wouldn't fire the leftovers.

We fired a nuclear weapon from an artillery piece, getting back to the bullet slump question. The reason it survived the launch and exploded successfully downrange was the peak push at launch was below the injury level of the device. Remember, it's propellant, not explosive that we use to get the bullets down the barrel.

That's why I asked if the freebore concept would keep the peak pressure down to allow the Berger to burn more powder without 'slumping'. If they could get 3000fps or more in a 338-378 Wby, that would prove it.

 

[edge]

It is amazing how much a bullet can deform when not fully supported!

I mainly shoot a smokeless muzzleloader with sabots that I make.
When i made my initial designs I made cuts in the sabot for the petals to break off cleanly, however I started the cuts in front of the bullet base.

When I shot the rifle the base of the bullet slumped and took on the reverse shape of the sabot!
The rifle was very accurate and It was not until I shot a deer and recovered the bullet did I realize that this was happening.

Below is the recovered bullet ( a 150 grain 8mm Speer Pro Hunter ) next to a 50 caliber sabot.
Notice the base is the reverse shape of the sabot cutout.
MV approx. 3150 fps.

edge.

 

[Chas1]

edge, interesting read and pics.

 

[Greywolf18]

Remember that in a war, unlike hunting, the idea is to injure, not kill.

Don't want to go off topic, but just read this and was thinking ***? I'm in the Marines and have been to war several times and I was never told, nor did I ever tell my Marines "just injure them" when going out on patrol. Injured people can still shoot back, just ask the guys that were bleeding from wounds but still pushed forward. 2 to the chest and 1 to the head, put them down for good and complete the mission. Sorry for hijacking this thread...

 

[Eric Stecker]

I am a bullet maker born with a condition that prevented me from serving this fine country with military service so my opinion is from my personal thoughts and not from first hand experience or specific training.

Having said that, I believe the effectiveness of injuring one to take out three (two to carry the one to the field hospital) ended after World War I. This is a practice suitable for trench warfare on a massive scale.

Today you have religous zealots who are so commited to fighting to the death for their cause that an injury is not going to stop them from fighting. He is certainly not going to expect two of his buddies to take him and them away from the fight.

We produce and are developing additional options that quickly and effectively puts them out of todays fight and every fight after that while keeping our guys as safe as is possible. I don't recall where I heard this phrase and I might screw it up a bit but I have never forgotten its meaning. Paraphasing it is, "Our job is not to die for our country but to make them die for theirs."

Regards,
Eric

 

[liltank]

It is amazing how much a bullet can deform when not fully supported!

I mainly shoot a smokeless muzzleloader with sabots that I make.
When i made my initial designs I made cuts in the sabot for the petals to break off cleanly, however I started the cuts in front of the bullet base.

When I shot the rifle the base of the bullet slumped and took on the reverse shape of the sabot!
The rifle was very accurate and It was not until I shot a deer and recovered the bullet did I realize that this was happening.

Below is the recovered bullet ( a 150 grain 8mm Speer Pro Hunter ) next to a 50 caliber sabot.
Notice the base is the reverse shape of the sabot cutout.
MV approx. 3150 fps.

edge.

Out of curiosity, what are the sabots made out of? What powder charge, and velocity are you attaining? What kind of accuracy at max distance are you getting? Just curious.

Thanks,
Tank

 

[GMBshootingclubM60]

Any takers on the idea of seeing what the 'slump' velocity is with a long freebore? This is a science question. There may be a difference between the Weatherby freebore and other systems.

 

[Eric Stecker]

Any takers on the idea of seeing what the 'slump' velocity is with a long freebore? This is a science question. There may be a difference between the Weatherby freebore and other systems.

I think that you will find that a long freebore is not appealling to most rifle shooters. There is too much out there regarding precision as a result of touching the rifling or being close to the rifling especially at long range.

I'm guessing but I believe most shooters will prefer waiting for us to make a bullet that will not require a long freebore. I support the process of discovery so I encourage you to learn what you can. In the end, if you find that a long freebore eliminates nose slump it will be a good thing to know but not likley to be adopted by many.

This is just an opinion and may be wrong so don't be discouraged by my comments.

Regards,
Eric

 

[elkaholic]

I think that you will find that a long freebore is not appealling to most rifle shooters. There is too much out there regarding precision as a result of touching the rifling or being close to the rifling especially at long range.

I'm guessing but I believe most shooters will prefer waiting for us to make a bullet that will not require a long freebore. I support the process of discovery so I encourage you to learn what you can. In the end, if you find that a long freebore eliminates nose slump it will be a good thing to know but not likley to be adopted by many.

This is just an opinion and may be wrong so don't be discouraged by my comments.

Regards,
Eric

I think you are correct and was getting ready to post a similar response when I read yours. Thanks for the input.....Rich

 

[liltank]

I think that you will find that a long freebore is not appealling to most rifle shooters. There is too much out there regarding precision as a result of touching the rifling or being close to the rifling especially at long range.

I'm guessing but I believe most shooters will prefer waiting for us to make a bullet that will not require a long freebore. I support the process of discovery so I encourage you to learn what you can. In the end, if you find that a long freebore eliminates nose slump it will be a good thing to know but not likley to be adopted by many.

This is just an opinion and may be wrong so don't be discouraged by my comments.

Regards,
Eric

It's funny you should say that. When at the Williamsport 1000yrd comp, one shooter said that most guys that are serious about shooting LR target jump VLD's .080" to .100" from the lands. I wasn't sure what to think of this, until I tried jumping mine .100" from the lands. I went from a 2.5" group down to 1.5" at 300yrds using 208 A-max's. My cousin did the same with his 338 Lapua. He was having trouble getting his 300 SMK's to settle in. He jumped .100" from the lands and got the same results with tighter groups. I'm a believer in jumping them now. Maybe Weatherby was on to something in their free bore.

I'm not saying it's the same for every rifle, but seems to be working. I believe another guy that was part of an earlier conversation tried the same thing with good results after I posted this suggestion. I don't know.... , just a thought.

Tank

 

[edge]

Out of curiosity, what are the sabots made out of? What powder charge, and velocity are you attaining? What kind of accuracy at max distance are you getting? Just curious.

Thanks,
Tank

I don't want to hijack the thread:

but the barrel is a Krieger .495/.505;
The sabots are PVC Type II fully machined and rifled to match the 1:20 twist;
sabot weighs right around 35 grains so with the 150 grain bullet the combo is right around 185 grains;
Lots a good loads, but 65 grains of N110 was excellent and right around 3,150 fps.

I made a new rifle with a .458 1:14 twist barrel that I use a 150 grain .308 Accubond.
The 505 hasn't been shot in about 5 years....I wish it had a faster twist!
Accuracy, I suck as a target shooter, but if the stars align I can drop 10 shots into 3/4 inch at 100 yards. A good shot could undoubtedly do a lot better.
I don't have a good place to shoot long range, but I did take a deer at about 330 yards with it a few years ago, but it seems the more I practice the shorter the shots seem to be

edge.