How do you judge wind

[wjm1000]

I stand by my belief that the wind at the shooting position is more important than the last 1/3 of the bullet flight . It becomes a matter of time because the conditions has less time to effect the trajectory of the bullet where as the wind at shooting position has the whole length of the bullet flight to act upon it. Once the wind acts on the bullet it will continue moving in that direction, the further the distance the more it will move in the direction it was first acted upon. The conditions along the way will also effect the bullet flight but to a lesser extent. The wind along the bullet path would have much stronger than it was at the shooters position. Just my two cents,

If you are having success doing what you do my all means keep doing it.

 

[dfanonymous]

This thread has become oddly esoteric. So again, it appears that the wind at the target is likely more important than the wind at the shooters location assuming long distances. If the next response has someone playing a mandolin and tambourines I'm out.

It all matters. Though I understand the argument shooter wind mattering the most. Once the bullet angles off course it never really goes back to wind zero. What we don't do is "sighter" shots. This isn't a bench competition. We don't even rely on sighters in PRS, which is probably more useful for hunting.

In an open field, in an open valley, shooter wind is simply 1/3 of the solution. If the wind at the shooter, mid and target are 5 mph, then wind dope is for 5 mph. Easy day. Unfortunately, that's not reality.

You might be on top of a fairly isolated peak, shooting down into a valley. Wind at your position might be 10 mph with an updraft riding up the mountain, wind at max ord might be 25, then decent into the valley (target) might be a swirling 4 mph. The smaller the target, the more it all matters.

 

[yobuck]

It all matters. Though I understand the argument shooter wind mattering the most. Once the bullet angles off course it never really goes back to wind zero. What we don't do is "sighter" shots. This isn't a bench competition. We don't even rely on sighters in PRS, which is probably more useful for hunting.

In an open field, in an open valley, shooter wind is simply 1/3 of the solution. If the wind at the shooter, mid and target are 5 mph, then wind dope is for 5 mph. Easy day. Unfortunately, that's not reality.

You might be on top of a fairly isolated peak, shooting down into a valley. Wind at your position might be 10 mph with an updraft riding up the mountain, wind at max ord might be 25, then decent into the valley (target) might be a swirling 4 mph. The smaller the target, the more it all matters.

Well your obviously referring to a rule that all the shooters involved are obligated to abide by, and that makes it fair for all of them. Whats to debate about that?
And your also referring to (might be) situations with wind calls.
When your hunting there are no (might be) situations.
There is the target, you have no control over what that target might do or which direction it might go, or how fast it might go there.
And i am talking about long range shots, not shots under say 500 yards.
All the time we just spent gathering the data for the perfect long range shot, could well be obsolete before we even chamber a round if meanwhile the animal has moved any amount of distance.
Now im not implying thats always the case, but fact is it can be, and sometimes is.
So the system we develop needs to consider all that.
Take advantage of whatever time that animal gives you for making the shot, not screwing around with our gadgets.

For closer shots of say under 7 or 800 yards, we will just add the clicks the chart calls for, maybe hold a bit for wind, and send the shot right at the target.
Unless the bullet strikes something like a tree branch, that as a rule is the only shot fired.
Remember now, most PA. long range hunters cheat, in that they shoot from a bench, or some other very good rest.
And they are apt to be using heavier guns as well with large cartridges.
Its the longer shots that are more apt to be affected by the wind, and our ( personal ) system for that is to if at all possible, send a sighter shot at something fairly close to the target.
What is, is, and there is no questions about what is might be when you see where that bullet impacts.
Meanwhile nothing has gotten hurt with a poorly placed shot.
A win win, all around.

 

[SSG Graybush]

I posted this on another forum about judging wind and was curious as to what the thoughts on this is on this board.

I've been hunting and shooting long-range for around forty years and this is my thoughts on judging wind, First off I feel the wind closest to the shooting position is the most important. The reason I say that is, as the bullet exits the muzzle of the barrel two major factors act on it immediately, gravity and wind along with other environmental factors but I think gravity and wind are the most significant. A few thousands of movement at the muzzle can be huge at 1000 yards. Having said that as the bullet moves along it's flight path it can be and will be influenced by other whim's of the wind. What I do to judge the wind at different yardages is use the parallax to get a rough idea what the wind is doing at those yardages, as the bullet gets further from the shooting position and closer to the target the less important it becomes until I totally ignore what the wind is doing at the target because the bullet is already there. I'll watch the trees, grass and if there is any mirage I'll note the direction and speed that the mirage appears to be moving,

This is a very broad view of wind reading and just some of the basic things that I take into consideration. There is an article on one of the other forums by Shawn Carlock that goes into much more detail.

Before the advent of the kestrel this is how I judged the wind speed.
MPH Calm Smoke rises vertically
MPH 1-3, smoke will show direction of wind movement.
MPH 4-7, you can feel the wind on your face, leaves rustle.
MPH 8-12, leaves and small twigs in constant motion.
MPH 13-18, dust will stir up, tree branches will be in motion.
MPH over 19 and up I usually wont shoot unless constant.

I agree with you on everything but the where the bullet is affected most. I think/was trained you should check mirage at halfway point. I think the bullet is affected more as it loses energy. Hornady lists bc's at speeds and those go down as speed decreases, causing greater affect on the bullet.

 

[yobuck]

I agree with you on everything but the where the bullet is affected most. I think/was trained you should check mirage at halfway point. I think the bullet is affected more as it loses energy. Hornady lists bc's at speeds and those go down as speed decreases, causing greater affect on the bullet.

Thats why there are always finger prints where wet paint signs are located.
People just dont tend to believe what they see. lol
Anyway, making making hard things easier might also have side affects. lol

 

[wjm1000]

Well your obviously referring to a rule that all the shooters involved are obligated to abide by, and that makes it fair for all of them. Whats to debate about that?
And your also referring to (might be) situations with wind calls.
When your hunting there are no (might be) situations.
There is the target, you have no control over what that target might do or which direction it might go, or how fast it might go there.
And i am talking about long range shots, not shots under say 500 yards.
All the time we just spent gathering the data for the perfect long range shot, could well be obsolete before we even chamber a round if meanwhile the animal has moved any amount of distance.
Now im not implying thats always the case, but fact is it can be, and sometimes is.
So the system we develop needs to consider all that.
Take advantage of whatever time that animal gives you for making the shot, not screwing around with our gadgets.

For closer shots of say under 7 or 800 yards, we will just add the clicks the chart calls for, maybe hold a bit for wind, and send the shot right at the target.
Unless the bullet strikes something like a tree branch, that as a rule is the only shot fired.
Remember now, most PA. long range hunters cheat, in that they shoot from a bench, or some other very good rest.
And they are apt to be using heavier guns as well with large cartridges.
Its the longer shots that are more apt to be affected by the wind, and our ( personal ) system for that is to if at all possible, send a sighter shot at something fairly close to the target.
What is, is, and there is no questions about what is might be when you see where that bullet impacts.
Meanwhile nothing has gotten hurt with a poorly placed shot.
A win win, all around.

PA long-range hunting. A picture is worth 1000 words. Some will condemn this type of hunting others may not but this is the way we've been doing it since the early 60's.

 

[mercerbear]

@Barbourcreek

My brother and I took James' Level 1 course and it was worth the trip.

I'll let him speak for himself, if he has the time.

 

[yobuck]

View attachment 483303
PA long-range hunting. A picture is worth 1000 words. Some will condemn this type of hunting others may not but this is the way we've been doing it since the early 60's.

Well there you go, and an enjoyable time is being had by all.
Pretty typical looking crew and equipment.
Even the very old guys can still take part.
Whats for lunch? lol
Note the single leg in front on the bench and the tripod.
Which happens to be a PA made one by (the ultimate tripod ).
It does appear to have been modified a bit however to sorta personalize it. Pretty typical of the Pa hunter mindset. lol

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I am sure there are people that are very good at reading wind. Much better than I am. What I do know is guys have trouble reading wind with flags posted all the way along the range. Now throw in a flagless shooting position across a valley or even worse a canyon. I don't think it is possible to read that wind. You can guess the wind. In my opinion the only way to get an accurate wind call is to take a sighter on a rock or something that will show bullet splash near the target. Adjust your hold and make the shot. If the animal doesn't stick around, so be it. It was great to see it.

 

[wjm1000]

I am sure there are people that are very good at reading wind. Much better than I am. What I do know is guys have trouble reading wind with flags posted all the way along the range. Now throw in a flagless shooting position across a valley or even worse a canyon. I don't think it is possible to read that wind. You can guess the wind. In my opinion the only way to get an accurate wind call is to take a sighter on a rock or something that will show bullet splash near the target. Adjust your hold and make the shot. If the animal doesn't stick around, so be it. It was great to see it.

Very true but in PA it's e-legal to shoot at random.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Very true but in PA it's e-legal to shoot at random.

Haha! I would say my first shot was a miss! Not random. Lol

 

[DoneNOut]

I make more & better hits reading the wind at the target. I attach a 4ft piece of yellow caution tape to the target when training. I observe the how the caution tape reacts to the wind: Angle of dangle, or whipping. I look at how the cues in the environment react to that tape reaction, so when I can't attach the tape to the game animal I can still associate to the wind speed, Lol.

If you are able to observe dust, leaves, etc being blown think of how fast it's going across the ground and relate it to a person running. A fast jog is 6-7mph. Catch a section of mirage ridges and pace them too.

 

[LRNut]

Wind is my passion, so if I sound like I am pontificating, my apologies. I built a house off grid in CO just so I could shoot every day in various wind conditions.

I use my side parallax to focus on mirage; it is why I love NF scopes. I have a March but it isn't nearly as "sensitive" as my NF scopes. Mirage is my No 1 method. If there is no mirage, I use a Kestrel but even more so, I use a wind flag made from a lightweight shock corded pole planted at my location. That gives me direction and wind value (esp if I compare the prevailing wind to the Kestrel reading). For wind direction at my target location (assuming no mirage), I look at vegetation - is the wind blowing the left side of the tree or the right side? Which side of a rock is the vegetation blowing?

The range obviously matters a lot. I have various gongs at my CO place; the 620 yard gong is 10x12, and with a Lapua, Edge, 300 RUM or 28N, it takes a pretty strong wind to hold 2 MOA; not so at 910 or farther. I have a gong at 760 that is a 15" circle; if the wind flag is blowing about 25 degrees, I hold on the edge and hit within 5" of center about every time. A 45 degree wind is 2 MOA, and if it is blowing hard enough that the flag (it is actually a piece of string) is higher than 45 degrees, I hold at least 3 MOA. Same wind is a 4 to 5 MOA hold at 910. I have similar rules if I can see the mirage.

I only practice long range shooting with my long range rifles. I have heard many say a .223 is great tool to learn the wind. I disagree; you need to shoot your LR rifles constantly or you will be subconsciously biased. I have a .338 WM with a B&C reticle. I shoot that at least once a day at 500 yards using only the reticle. The wind hold at 500 (225 Hornady SP) is far more than my .338 Lapua at 620. If I only shot that .338 WM, I would overcompensate when it came time to shoot the Lapua. Hitting something at 500 yards is infinitely easier than doing it at twice the distance.

I have said this many times, but the wind in the mountains at my CO place gust far more than the winds in the AZ desert. In AZ you almost always have mirage. I would also say the direction of the wind at my shooting site in AZ is almost always the same as at my target, but not so true in CO. I used to live in MN; when land is flat, the wind is much more consistent.

The worst wind is one that is fish tailing toward me or away. This is extremely difficult because a wind varying from 11 to 1 o'clock has a 1/2 full value either way. At 620 it doesn't matter much, but farther it becomes extremely difficult.

When I practice shooting in the wind I almost never take a second shot if I miss unless I want to confirm something weird (my 910 yard gong is up on a hill and once in a great while a "zero" wind is anything but). Correcting a miss isn't that difficult but you are not likely to get that chance hunting. In Colorado, I leave my rifles set up right outside the door of my loading room; when I see a wind condition that looks challenging, I shoot. Then I wait a while for a different condition. I normally take a shot at my 910 yard gong first thing in the morning but the wind is almost always calm (I do have to hold for spin however).

I don't practice on ranges with wind flags because they are too easy and you don't have them in the field. I video every LR shot I take in CO; it is a huge advantage. The bullet "puff" on the gong shows me the wind at the target the moment I pulled the trigger + TOF.

If there are rain drops, snowflakes, or weed debris blowing in the wind, they pretty much determine my wind call.

I do think shooting at one location leads to learning the local conditions and makes you think you are better than you really are. Shooting in the desert is a great way to "test" my wind skills after shooting for months in CO but something like PRS at different locations would be even better.

Until I got my place in CO and could shoot every day in various wind conditions, I really wasn't that great at wind calling. Being great includes knowing the wind condition that results in a high probability of missing or wounding, which you only learn by missing. I would say once your wind hold in MOA is twice your target size in MOA, your odds of missing increase rapidly. For example, a 10" target at 500 yards is 2 MOA; that means a four MOA wind hold is about max. At 1000 yards, that vital area is 1 MOA, so the max wind hold to assure a high probability of a hit is 2 MOA, which is not a very strong wind (it is a mouse fart if you shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor). The stronger the wind, the higher the standard deviation of the wind speed; combine that with TOF and you have two things working against you even if you are master wind caller.

Finally, I would add this: I got to "play" with the Trijicon Ventus when it was being evaluated. Sure, it didn't read wind past 500 yards, and it took a few seconds for it to read the wind, but it was amazing. I never missed at any range the day I got to use it. I never heard why they dropped it, but I suspect it wasn't a "cure all" - unlike laser rangefinders (and it had an outstanding one), the feedback had a very limited shelf life; by the time you measured it, the wind had likely changed. But knowing that the prevailing condition was 6 or 8 mph, for example, was huge. I was ready to fork over 15K for one.

 

[dfanonymous]

Well your obviously referring to a rule that all the shooters involved are obligated to abide by, and that makes it fair for all of them. Whats to debate about that?
And your also referring to (might be) situations with wind calls.
When your hunting there are no (might be) situations.
There is the target, you have no control over what that target might do or which direction it might go, or how fast it might go there.
And i am talking about long range shots, not shots under say 500 yards.
All the time we just spent gathering the data for the perfect long range shot, could well be obsolete before we even chamber a round if meanwhile the animal has moved any amount of distance.
Now im not implying thats always the case, but fact is it can be, and sometimes is.
So the system we develop needs to consider all that.
Take advantage of whatever time that animal gives you for making the shot, not screwing around with our gadgets.

For closer shots of say under 7 or 800 yards, we will just add the clicks the chart calls for, maybe hold a bit for wind, and send the shot right at the target.
Unless the bullet strikes something like a tree branch, that as a rule is the only shot fired.
Remember now, most PA. long range hunters cheat, in that they shoot from a bench, or some other very good rest.
And they are apt to be using heavier guns as well with large cartridges.
Its the longer shots that are more apt to be affected by the wind, and our ( personal ) system for that is to if at all possible, send a sighter shot at something fairly close to the target.
What is, is, and there is no questions about what is might be when you see where that bullet impacts.
Meanwhile nothing has gotten hurt with a poorly placed shot.
A win win, all around.

That's until your sighter gut shots your game. Or injures it, but you do you.