Hammer Bullets

[Rich Coyle]

Predator Slayer,

Do it. Then you will have credibility. Now you are nothing but a troll.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Predator Slayer,

Do it. Then you will have credibility. Now you are nothing but a troll.

Wow . PM sent - lets take this party off this thread.

 

[jpndave]

I have used HH on hogs almost exclusively so I can not speak to other game other than one doe. 150lb @200yd. Thru-n-thru heart and lungs a mess. Shattered a rib on the way out. No recovery of bullet.

I have taken roughly 30 hogs with 155 HH 7RM. Distances from a few feet to roughly 500yd. Sizes were between 40lb sholts to a near 400lb boar. The later was the one at just a few feet coming off a deer feeder I was coming to fill. Neither of us saw the other until we were almost nose to nose. Yes there was uncomfortable pucker factor on my end.

The bullets performed well. Its one of the few bullets I have no issue taken double shoulder shots on big hogs. Normally we go for neck shots. While my numbers are limited, the shots that lined up properly to hit both shoulders shatter both shedding all pedals and left the base just under the hide. Overall these bullets seem to track well internally. IIRC I had 3 or 4 that hit that way. One I shot head on slight angle went thru edge of front shoulder and was actually lodged in the opposite rear hip bone. It broke it but was not shattered. That one was fairly large roughly 330lb The internals were a mess. Hogs are the nastiest smelling game when the guts are ripped open.

Then again according to some I'm not sure any of these meets some arbitary definition of LR so maybe these experiences are irrelavent and of no value? Of course we would loose over half of the game taken posts and pics on this entire forum if people want to start drawing arbirtuary lines in the sand.

If people have had a first hand failure of poor performance with these bullets speak up. I think most, and I know I personally, want to know. I want to know the limits or weaknesses in anything I use. I am confident Steve of all people would be the most interested as its his product and from his proven history is willing and active in improving his product.

Has there been any obviously wild exagerations or clearly false claims made in this thread by those posting first hand experience taking game with Hammer bullets? I dont see it.

In fact the only unsupported claims made are by those complaining about these wildly positive exagerated claims!?! The only not first hand comments are the negative ones. Thats kind of amusing ....lol

Another bit of irony , after the comment insinuating people talking up hammer bullets that have never used them, the most active poster in this thread, certainly in the first few pages, offering up info, has never owned any hammer bullets let alone shot or taken game with them by his own admission. Gotta love internet forums lol

Here's an original idea, if you have an issue with someones opinion or review being false or overly exaggerated address it/them directly in THAT thread. But it might help if you had your own first hand experience and clear proof to support it. Obviously do it respectfully.

Seriously now, if you have never used them on game then how would itb be possible to convey any first hand experience/knowledge as you have none?

I can not see what productive contributions are being made by those. Rather its a periphrastic way to vent frustration at some unnamed member's opinions made in some other threads or maybe its all those who have overwhelmingly positive experiences??

I sincerly don't know but its derailed this thread whatever the reason. Maybe that was the gioal?

Its an internet discussion forum there is always going to be unsupported claim , parroting etc. There would have to be very strict heavy moderation to change that. I have been on a few forums like this but they were private invitation only. Joy to be on but a ton if extra work to maintain.

That is some good information. Thanks Tim.

If I can summarize what I'm gleaning from the legit information. The Hammers (and most of this could be applied to Cutting Edge) are brutal tough. Fire them into whatever you want at even stupid speeds and they'll drive through as promised. Petals fly fairly quickly and the ragged core drives through. They are very accurate/consistent with precise tolerances and zero jacket vareience as there is no jacket. The material and design don't have any of the engraving/sealing/fouling issues that others have.

BC issue issue we deal with using speed and more reasonable distances.

Cost? Well, your getting precise lathe turned bullets, suck it up I guess.

I do have a question on lower velocity performance. What speeds are needed to initiate the petal dump? I'll reach out to Hammer directly on the 124gr I'm sure they'll have a good answer for that. Anyone have longer range/slower strikes?

I want to give them a try.

 

[jpndave]

Hi I only use the Hammer bullets in one rifle, it's a 270 Allen Mag with 3 grove 7 twist barrel. I need a projectile that will hold together at 3400fps. I'm running the 168gr 277 and am mag feeding it. The barrel is around 400 rounds old so it's firecracked and will blow up conventional projectiles. I have a Burris laser guide scope on it and have shot the combo to 1000 yards.
The rifle is set up to mainly use to 600 yards but I'll take it to 1000 if the shot and conditions are right. I am pleased with the results I wish the bc was higher mabe tipped but then they wouldn't mag feed. The cutting edge and badlands are also great options.
When this barrel dies I will likley do a rebated 277/338 Norma improved to allow better seating the projectile is around 1.750" long.

This is interesting to me. If you were only going to shoot solids, I would think really cranking up the twist could help things out. Bryan Litz talks about this in at least one of his books. I'll have to go back and reference where. Basically the really fast twist not only increases BC but also terminal performance. Bullets drive into tissue and stuff further and straighter the faster they are spinning. Expansion and petal separation initiates better too.

Problems are bullets can come apart if spun too fast and even microscopic jacket thickness variations throw the bullet sideways as it leaves the barrel. Neither of these would be issues with the solids.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Well said. If being a "fan boy" is defined by seeing results and liking what you see, then I'm definitely a "fan boy" of the Hammers. I took a chance on them last summer in a Weatherby 270 mag 117gr Hammer Hunter and with two 30-378 Weatherby Mags with the intent on finding a better all around hunting bullet. Over the years, I've loaded and shot just about every brand of bullet and I've never had load development any easier than with the Hammers. I load for several friends who also were willing to put them to the test this past season and the results are... Two bull elk, five mule deer and a pile of whitetail all one shot one kill with little to no tracking and no bullets recovered. In the 30-378's and the 300 ultra mag, with shot them (targets only) with exceptional accuracy and wouldn't hesitate with proper conditions to take and animal at that distance. If folks are tired of hearing about the Hammers, I would simply suggest just trying them and see for yourself. No harm no foul.

I agree about trying different bullet and manufactures to development loads. Which I have over the years. Assuming you have your rifle in hand. Case prep is the start point other wise it's harder to work up a load. I am not saying you have too, but you won't get as much out of the round by not doing it. Barrel length is importance too. I see that a great many like flame thrower loading slow powders in short barrel even with mag primers. I deal with belted mag rifles so my powder charge is limited to about 75 grains and generally with a Federal 210 primer, but use 26" barrels. 308 norma Mag I am getting 3300 fps. I also have a 265 Wing Mag. 7mm Rem Mag. and a 338 Win Mag along with several other rifles. The 338 is a tack diver, and I am getting 3220fps with a 200 grain Noslers Spbt.

Now I have used both 308 Nor, Mag and 338 Win Mag in Africa over the past 4 years. Stopping all animals either in their tracks or with in 30 yards. The only problem I didn't get was to see the animal skinned out to see what the bullet did to the animal.

I will try some hammer bullets here shortly. Working on loads for my son's 338 Win Mag in a 26" barrel.

SSS
Mike

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I want to thank EVERYONE on this thread. I personally like the feedback. Particularly negative. I would prefer to hear negative feedback from folks who have actually experienced a negative while using Hammers.

There is a couple of things that I would like to comment on.

BC! It is tough, for sure. We certainly do not want to "boast" a bc, or list one that is too low. We do see some significant diff in bc from one rifle to another and atmosphere to atmosphere. BC is a fluid number and is effected by all these things. We are on the waiting list with Oehler to get their new bullet timing system/bc calculation system. We can't wait. We really are not that worried about where the bc falls with each bullet, just that it is accurate and will get our customers close enough with their rifle system to validate their drop data with their rifle system. This fall we set up 4 different rifles in various calibers for the hunting season. 3 of the 4 rifles needed a higher bc than what we list on our website to make the drops work out. One needed a lower bc than we have listed. Interestingly the 3 that needed a higher bc were all running faster twist barrels than the listed min. The one that needed a lower bc was running the min twist listed for the bullet. We are at about 4000' altitude and I am sure it will become more pronounced at lower elevations. I personally set up my hunting rifles with a stability factor closer to 2.0 on the Miller stability calculator, calculated at sea level and standard atmosphere. Millers formula falls short, I think, when it comes to copper bullets. It does not take into account the material density, nor do I think it was designed for the very long bullets of today compared to the very normal length bullets that were being used when it was developed. We see that the longer for caliber the bullets get the more stability is needed beyond what the formula calls for.

The definition of "long range" seems to always cause some issues in these kind of discussions. IMO long range is defined by each individual and no one is wrong. We have designed and tested our bullets to perform properly down to our min advertised vel of 1800fps. This is the only place that we let our personal hunting opinions get involved in the marketing of out bullets. With standard high power rifle cartridges, 22 cal to 338 cal, we feel like 1800 fps should be maintained whether the bullet will properly deform lower or not, in order to have quick clean kills. We test down to 1800 fps and do not try to see how low they will go. We recommend to those who are comfortable with lower impact vel on game that they test whatever bullet they choose to make sure it is doing what they expect. Brand X bullets can advertise very low vel performance and there will be very few people that will ever know what those bullets are doing at that vel. Not saying that any manufactures are not truthful about their claim, just saying I want to know personally what my bullet choice is doing at the vel/range limitation that I have set for the combo. Terminal performance on big game is the reason that we ever got into the bullet business. It matters more to us than anything else. All coppers are not created equal. We recycled several thousand pounds of copper that we purchased, hoping that it would do what we wanted, and it did not. If we had known that we were going to have as hard a time finding a raw material that would do what we wanted, we probably would not have started the business. By the time we figured out that any ol good pure copper wasn't good enough for our standards, it was too late to back out!

We have and have lots of customers that have taken animals around 1000y mark, and some well past that. So to say that Hammer Bullets are not good for long range hunting, IMO, is wrong.

I truly value customers who have strong, healthy skepticism about our bullets. Then try them and form their own opinion. I doubt that we have converted everyone that has given them a go, but I don't know about anyone that came to the conclusion that Hammers are not a very good bullet.

Thanks guys!

 

[shooter7]

I've shot 4 animals in the last two weeks in Texas with .300 win mag running 199 hammer hunters at 3128fps. First up was a Aoudad. 225 yards, bullet went in and came out shedding its petals in the animal. Both shoulders broken. One shot bang flop. Second was a Javalina. 200 yards. Low behind shoulder in and out through the rib cage. One shot .30 cal hole in 3" hole out. Bang flop. Third was a red sheep ewe. 75 yards. Bullet went in just in front of the right hind quarter and exited just in front of the left front shoulder. Massive internal damage. Sheep went 10-15' before piling up. Fourth was a Oryx. 150yards. Bullet went through both shoulders. Lungs completely destroyed. Flipped over and died.

So basically I got a decent sample from the last two weeks. I have also had good luck shooting steel out to 700 yards as well.

Some of that sweet, sweet auodad damage from elk eaters 199 hammer.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

I want to thank EVERYONE on this thread. I personally like the feedback. Particularly negative. I would prefer to hear negative feedback from folks who have actually experienced a negative while using Hammers.

There is a couple of things that I would like to comment on.

BC! It is tough, for sure. We certainly do not want to "boast" a bc, or list one that is too low. We do see some significant diff in bc from one rifle to another and atmosphere to atmosphere. BC is a fluid number and is effected by all these things. We are on the waiting list with Oehler to get their new bullet timing system/bc calculation system. We can't wait. We really are not that worried about where the bc falls with each bullet, just that it is accurate and will get our customers close enough with their rifle system to validate their drop data with their rifle system. This fall we set up 4 different rifles in various calibers for the hunting season. 3 of the 4 rifles needed a higher bc than what we list on our website to make the drops work out. One needed a lower bc than we have listed. Interestingly the 3 that needed a higher bc were all running faster twist barrels than the listed min. The one that needed a lower bc was running the min twist listed for the bullet. We are at about 4000' altitude and I am sure it will become more pronounced at lower elevations. I personally set up my hunting rifles with a stability factor closer to 2.0 on the Miller stability calculator, calculated at sea level and standard atmosphere. Millers formula falls short, I think, when it comes to copper bullets. It does not take into account the material density, nor do I think it was designed for the very long bullets of today compared to the very normal length bullets that were being used when it was developed. We see that the longer for caliber the bullets get the more stability is needed beyond what the formula calls for.

The definition of "long range" seems to always cause some issues in these kind of discussions. IMO long range is defined by each individual and no one is wrong. We have designed and tested our bullets to perform properly down to our min advertised vel of 1800fps. This is the only place that we let our personal hunting opinions get involved in the marketing of out bullets. With standard high power rifle cartridges, 22 cal to 338 cal, we feel like 1800 fps should be maintained whether the bullet will properly deform lower or not, in order to have quick clean kills. We test down to 1800 fps and do not try to see how low they will go. We recommend to those who are comfortable with lower impact vel on game that they test whatever bullet they choose to make sure it is doing what they expect. Brand X bullets can advertise very low vel performance and there will be very few people that will ever know what those bullets are doing at that vel. Not saying that any manufactures are not truthful about their claim, just saying I want to know personally what my bullet choice is doing at the vel/range limitation that I have set for the combo. Terminal performance on big game is the reason that we ever got into the bullet business. It matters more to us than anything else. All coppers are not created equal. We recycled several thousand pounds of copper that we purchased, hoping that it would do what we wanted, and it did not. If we had known that we were going to have as hard a time finding a raw material that would do what we wanted, we probably would not have started the business. By the time we figured out that any ol good pure copper wasn't good enough for our standards, it was too late to back out!

We have and have lots of customers that have taken animals around 1000y mark, and some well past that. So to say that Hammer Bullets are not good for long range hunting, IMO, is wrong.

I truly value customers who have strong, healthy skepticism about our bullets. Then try them and form their own opinion. I doubt that we have converted everyone that has given them a go, but I don't know about anyone that came to the conclusion that Hammers are not a very good bullet.

Thanks guys!

Thanks for your input Steve. From a design and functionality standpoint, how do your bullets differ from cutting edge bullets? It looks to me like both are designed to shed petals upon penetration.

 

[Mustang72]

I shouldn't post here I guess since I have never even shot a hammer, but was wondering kind of the same things. Wanted to hear positive and negative feedback from people that have actually killed things with these bullets. Glad to see Steve post on here as well. I have a few other bullets that I intend on trying,but I will be getting in touch with Steve to get his recommendation about which hammer to order. So far I haven't heard of any failures in this and other threads. That says a lot to me! More expensive yes, but sometimes you get what you pay for!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Thanks for your input Steve. From a design and functionality standpoint, how do your bullets differ from cutting edge bullets? It looks to me like both are designed to shed petals upon penetration.

We run a copper that is a bit softer and a bit less brittle. Both bullets are of the same concept, yes. Our drive band design is more forgiving for seating depth since you can seat anywhere on the baring surface just like a conventional bullet. Not limited on seating by one single drive band. Because of the radius drive bands on the Hammers we have less pressure but more points of contact in the barrel resulting in easy accuracy with low engraving pressure and almost never see any copper fouling.

Ideally we want to see a flat square frontal area of the retained shank. Kinda like a flat based bullet fired backward. This is a pic of a 221g 8mm recovered from a blacktail shot end to end. That is the perfect result that we are after.

 

[snox801]

Steve is correct that's exactly what I experienced between the two. The softer copper seems to work just a bit better for me. Now I still shoot cutting edge in some of mine because load work is done and I'm very busy. But all my new stuff and the ones I hunt most with are moved to hammer.

 

[pickens72]

They are not a long range hunting bullet - so on this site, yeah it seems to me like they are oversold...just my opinion based on my research. Also, the fact that the guys that use them will recommend them on a thread that is asking for experience on the ABLR vs the Berger etc, further supports my point.

I guess 800 yds aint long range?

 

[TXAoudadKlr]

The B.C for the 181 was spot on at 600 for me and boy do they get there in a hurry at 3500

 

[PredatorSlayer]

I guess 800 yds aint long range?

Its all relative. Guys kills stuff with partitions at 800 yards, doesn't mean its considered a long range bullet. Generally, long range hunting bullets are sleek VLD types - Berger, SMK, ELDM with high bcs - Am I crazy? I am not saying they won't work, but if we are going to start calling the hammer bullets a long range bullet, we are going to have to start including partitions and regular old accubonds and Aframes etc.

Before this thread, i had honestly never heard anybody tout them as a long range bullet - so this is news to me. Most of what you read about are guys using them out to 500-600 yards. Even guys who shoot hammers have also said on this website that if they shoot over 600 yards they will use bergers or something similar.