Hammer Bullets

[Rich Coyle]

PredatorSlayer,

Are you the final arbitrator of what is a long range bullet, or can we ask anyone else?

 

[sixfivefanboy]

I see what you are talking about but also seen a lot of Hornady bullet fan pushing the. ELD-M and ELD-X in that thread also so I don't think it's just hammer fans that do it.

I just read through the thread you are referencing - ELD-Ms and X's are considered long range bullets which is what the OP was asking about in there. Also not surprising they are talked about so much because hornady loads them in their nicer factory ammo.

 

[swe123]

Its all relative. Guys kills stuff with partitions at 800 yards, doesn't mean its considered a long range bullet. Generally, long range hunting bullets are sleek VLD types - Berger, SMK, ELDM with high bcs - Am I crazy? I am not saying they won't work, but if we are going to start calling the hammer bullets a long range bullet, we are going to have to start including partitions and regular old accubonds and Aframes etc.

Before this thread, i had honestly never heard anybody tout them as a long range bullet - so this is news to me. Most of what you read about are guys using them out to 500-600 yards. Even guys who shoot hammers have also said on this website that if they shoot over 600 yards they will use bergers or something similar.

So Hammers are not long range because they don't exaggerate their BC's.

 

[sixfivefanboy]

PredatorSlayer,

Are you the final arbitrator of what is a long range bullet, or can we ask anyone else?

Man, I just read through this entire thread - you keep attacking predatorslayer, but it seems he is genuinely interested in hammer bullets. How else are people supposed to learn without questioning things? Maybe you guys have some weird history I don't know about?

 

[Rich Coyle]

Man, I just read through this entire thread - you keep attacking predatorslayer, but it seems he is genuinely interested in hammer bullets. How else are people supposed to learn without questioning things? Maybe you guys have some weird history I don't know about?

Read someone his other posts about Hammer Bullets. If he was truly interested he would do what others have done: Buy and test them.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

So Hammers are not long range because they don't exaggerate their BC's.

My experience with "long range bullets" is limited to bergers and eldm/x's. I haven't found that those are overstated or exagerated. I think the most blatant example of BC inflation that I saw was with the Accubond Long Range. I have no idea how accurate hammer's bcs are. I do know that if you are claiming berger inflates their BCs, I havent seen that.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Man, I just read through this entire thread - you keep attacking predatorslayer, but it seems he is genuinely interested in hammer bullets. How else are people supposed to learn without questioning things? Maybe you guys have some weird history I don't know about?

Thank you! Lol

No weird history that I am aware of - at least before this thread started. I guess I am going to get to see how the new ignore function works on the updated forum

 

[jpndave]

Thanks for chiming in Steve. I ran the numbers on the 124gr in and if I can push 3000fps (and I think it will if Quickload is even remotely close) Hopefully the rifle will cooperate, maybe even a little better than that. 3000fps muzzle would give a usable range of out to about 700yds in that application keeping the 1800fps minimum. That should work well for the intended application. It also leaves energy in the 1000ft/lb range at that distance. The way these solids work, I'm not sure that that is really the iron clad critical number often touted. Putting the bullet where it belongs is most important then second having terminal performance is second to that. These Hammers should do both of those jobs well.

It's interesting that your BC results back up what I was quoting from Litz. If I can get some more confidence in these, my son might inherit this Kimber and a second one I have may get a faster twist barrel, 7 or even a 6.5. It sounds like using the faster twists is all positive with these bullets.

I'll have to look at the 7mm options for further out/bigger stuff. Quickly running some numbers on that shows that you should be able to get to 1K and keep the 1800fps if done properly.

It looks like Cutting Edge is gaining a bit of BC with their tipped versions. Have you looked an that option by chance Steve?

My poor Marlin just winced in the safe as I read that 1800fps minimum. Had to reassure her that it was only for those lesser-smaller bullets and that it didn't apply to the 45/70 as I read further in Steve's post. Reassured that there were several options for feeding slow and fat.

I want to thank EVERYONE on this thread. I personally like the feedback. Particularly negative. I would prefer to hear negative feedback from folks who have actually experienced a negative while using Hammers.

There is a couple of things that I would like to comment on.

BC! It is tough, for sure. We certainly do not want to "boast" a bc, or list one that is too low. We do see some significant diff in bc from one rifle to another and atmosphere to atmosphere. BC is a fluid number and is effected by all these things. We are on the waiting list with Oehler to get their new bullet timing system/bc calculation system. We can't wait. We really are not that worried about where the bc falls with each bullet, just that it is accurate and will get our customers close enough with their rifle system to validate their drop data with their rifle system. This fall we set up 4 different rifles in various calibers for the hunting season. 3 of the 4 rifles needed a higher bc than what we list on our website to make the drops work out. One needed a lower bc than we have listed. Interestingly the 3 that needed a higher bc were all running faster twist barrels than the listed min. The one that needed a lower bc was running the min twist listed for the bullet. We are at about 4000' altitude and I am sure it will become more pronounced at lower elevations. I personally set up my hunting rifles with a stability factor closer to 2.0 on the Miller stability calculator, calculated at sea level and standard atmosphere. Millers formula falls short, I think, when it comes to copper bullets. It does not take into account the material density, nor do I think it was designed for the very long bullets of today compared to the very normal length bullets that were being used when it was developed. We see that the longer for caliber the bullets get the more stability is needed beyond what the formula calls for.

The definition of "long range" seems to always cause some issues in these kind of discussions. IMO long range is defined by each individual and no one is wrong. We have designed and tested our bullets to perform properly down to our min advertised vel of 1800fps. This is the only place that we let our personal hunting opinions get involved in the marketing of out bullets. With standard high power rifle cartridges, 22 cal to 338 cal, we feel like 1800 fps should be maintained whether the bullet will properly deform lower or not, in order to have quick clean kills. We test down to 1800 fps and do not try to see how low they will go. We recommend to those who are comfortable with lower impact vel on game that they test whatever bullet they choose to make sure it is doing what they expect. Brand X bullets can advertise very low vel performance and there will be very few people that will ever know what those bullets are doing at that vel. Not saying that any manufactures are not truthful about their claim, just saying I want to know personally what my bullet choice is doing at the vel/range limitation that I have set for the combo. Terminal performance on big game is the reason that we ever got into the bullet business. It matters more to us than anything else. All coppers are not created equal. We recycled several thousand pounds of copper that we purchased, hoping that it would do what we wanted, and it did not. If we had known that we were going to have as hard a time finding a raw material that would do what we wanted, we probably would not have started the business. By the time we figured out that any ol good pure copper wasn't good enough for our standards, it was too late to back out!

We have and have lots of customers that have taken animals around 1000y mark, and some well past that. So to say that Hammer Bullets are not good for long range hunting, IMO, is wrong.

I truly value customers who have strong, healthy skepticism about our bullets. Then try them and form their own opinion. I doubt that we have converted everyone that has given them a go, but I don't know about anyone that came to the conclusion that Hammers are not a very good bullet.

Thanks guys!

 

[Edd]

Hammer is getting some mileage out of this one. They may have to buy another machine.

 

[Elkeater]

Thanks for chiming in Steve. I ran the numbers on the 124gr in and if I can push 3000fps (and I think it will if Quickload is even remotely close) Hopefully the rifle will cooperate, maybe even a little better than that. 3000fps muzzle would give a usable range of out to about 700yds in that application keeping the 1800fps minimum. That should work well for the intended application. It also leaves energy in the 1000ft/lb range at that distance. The way these solids work, I'm not sure that that is really the iron clad critical number often touted. Putting the bullet where it belongs is most important then second having terminal performance is second to that. These Hammers should do both of those jobs well.

It's interesting that your BC results back up what I was quoting from Litz. If I can get some more confidence in these, my son might inherit this Kimber and a second one I have may get a faster twist barrel, 7 or even a 6.5. It sounds like using the faster twists is all positive with these bullets.

I'll have to look at the 7mm options for further out/bigger stuff. Quickly running some numbers on that shows that you should be able to get to 1K and keep the 1800fps if done properly.

It looks like Cutting Edge is gaining a bit of BC with their tipped versions. Have you looked an that option by chance Steve?

My poor Marlin just winced in the safe as I read that 1800fps minimum. Had to reassure her that it was only for those lesser-smaller bullets and that it didn't apply to the 45/70 as I read further in Steve's post. Reassured that there were several options for feeding slow and fat.

You are correct about the hammers liking faster twist rates. The .300 win mag I'm running them in is a 8 twist. Perhaps that is also why the BCs have held up for me as well.

 

[swe123]

Whatever happened to Hammer Loaded ammo?

 

[RockyMtnMT]

@PredatorSlayer

At what range are you typically killing big game animals? IMO there is a small percentage of hunters that make shots on animals beyond 600y. There are a few elite hunters that take game at 1000y plus. It would be good to have a clarification of where you are in your ability and hunting success. What is your chosen cartridge for long range hunting? What bullet has worked best for you? What bullet have you used on game beyond 1000y, on game, that did not perform to your expectations and why? Your input here could be very valuable.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

PredatorSlayer,

Are you the final arbitrator of what is a long range bullet, or can we ask anyone else?

Oh geez, Rich - are you the one that was claiming that everybody that shoots lead core bullets was going to get lead poisoning and die? Thats why are you are pro mono and anti lead core bullets? We may have had some back and forth before now that I think about it.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Whatever happened to Hammer Loaded ammo?

Working on it. That was our reason for going to SHOT Show this week. It is coming one way or another.