Hammer Bullets and Hyper Velocity, The Misconception

[Stgraves260]

If your trying too discuss the Pros and cons of Berger bullets why don't you start your own thread on that subject this thread is about Hammer bullets no offense intended would like too hear the responses of Bergers might be interesting

It was because on this thread I was asked a question, so I answered it the best I could.

 

[Stgraves260]

Sorry I know I'm gonna get crap for this but I can never get behind Berger. They are like mechanical broadheads when they work nothing is better when they fail well.
For every guide or hunter who says they are amazing you hear just as many or more with horror stories. Something you never hear for other consistent bullets. Have you ever heard a guide say he won't let or frowns upon partition? Nope.
But I really do have to admit that they do impress me when they work and I have no real experience with a failure so I may be off base. But I don't have a lot of money so when I go after a once in a lifetime hunt I give up certain things for a guarantee.
Same reason I still use fixed blade.
Let's all be glad we have choices.
If everyone drove a ford I would get to feel vastly more manly then many on the road.

" There is no guarantees or absolutes in life". I have come to except that. All thing fail, nothing is perfect, there is always room for improvement. Seek perfection as if were gold. Be willing to except change. Adapt to your environment and any situation and you will become successful.

 

[ButterBean]

Bullet Reference Charts

DESCRIPTION LEGEND FB: Flat Base High BC FB: High BC Flat Base BR Column: Bench Rest Flat Base BT: Boat Tail Long Range BT/Juggernaut: Long Range Boat Tail VLD: Very Low Drag Hybrid: Combination Secant and Tangent Ogive LR Hybrid: Long Range Hybrid AR Hybrid/Classic Hunter: Short Nose Hybrid...

bergerbullets.com

It appears that Berger bullets is revamping their bullets and how they get their data. I have been hunting long range sense the 90s. Started long range shooting in the 80s. That being said I stated in a comment I made that Berger bullet only need 1300 FPS for proper expansion. I have that data in my personal data book. I'm following up to give accurate and proper data. I can not find on any of my research to back up my info on 1300 FPS for proper expansion other than what I have in my sniper data book. I have had the 1300 FPS in my data sense the 90s because that's when my bullets were made. I do have bullets that we're made in the 2000s. On my 6.5 cal 140 grain bullets, the BC show to be .612. The new 6.5 140 BC show to be .600 and some .589 in social media. Berger has a video out that I will be getting soon that talks about all this. I will give updates when I get the video/DVD. As of now I will be using the 1300 FPS min for proper expansion on my pre 2000 Berger bullets because that's seams to be when they started making changes. Walt Berger sold the company in 1999 or 2000 so that probably has something to do with it. I have read that Bryian Litz is in Berger's research and development team. Mr Lits is the man who created JBM ballistic calculations. I think people should look him up and you will find a lot of bullet manufactures use his theories for bullet drag/BC/form factor. I found a post that Barns Bullets posted some misinformation about Berger bullets needed 1800 FPS for proper expansion. This is misleading people in a negative way. Barns has refrained his post but you can still find the old post in the web. I would suggest following the manufactures suggestions on what is needed for their bullets for optimal performance. I used to use wet newspaper to test my bullets on proper expansion, but I would get my results at the actual distance, meaning 50 yards, 500 yards, 1000 yards 1500 yards and so on. I would NOT get my info at 50 yards and just make light loads so that they would get minimum velocities. I feel this would give improper date because the bullet would not have time to stabilize after leaving the barrel. Back in the day when I started my own research I found by using that method bullets would sometimes smack the newspaper sideways and not fly true. The bullets need time to stabilize and the proper velocity just to be able to exit the barrel correctly. That's a hole other discussion. Hope this all helps. Sorry so lengthy. It was not a easy answer.

It was because on this thread I was asked a question, so I answered it the best I could.

" There is no guarantees or absolutes in life". I have come to except that. All thing fail, nothing is perfect, there is always room for improvement. Seek perfection as if were gold. Be willing to except change. Adapt to your environment and any situation and you will become successful.

While I appreciate your answers as said above this is the thread title
Hammer Bullets and Hyper Velocity, The Misconception
I mean no offense but no one here is interested in Bergers .............................At All

 

[Stgraves260]

While I appreciate your answers as said above this is the thread title
Hammer Bullets and Hyper Velocity, The Misconception
I mean no offense but no one here is interested in Bergers .............................At All

I respect your comment and no offense taken but yet again someone asked me about Berger bullets that why I answered.

 

[Stgraves260]

It appears that Berger bullets is revamping their bullets and how they get their data. I have been hunting long range sense the 90s. Started long range shooting in the 80s. That being said I stated in a comment I made that Berger bullet only need 1300 FPS for proper expansion. I have that data in my personal data book. I'm following up to give accurate and proper data. I can not find on any of my research to back up my info on 1300 FPS for proper expansion other than what I have in my sniper data book. I have had the 1300 FPS in my data sense the 90s because that's when my bullets were made. I do have bullets that we're made in the 2000s. On my 6.5 cal 140 grain bullets, the BC show to be .612. The new 6.5 140 BC show to be .600 and some .589 in social media. Berger has a video out that I will be getting soon that talks about all this. I will give updates when I get the video/DVD. As of now I will be using the 1300 FPS min for proper expansion on my pre 2000 Berger bullets because that seams to be when they started making changes. Walt Berger sold the company in 1999 or 2000 so that probably has something to do with it. I have heard that Bryian Litz is in Berger's research and development team. Mr Lits is the man who created JBM ballistic calculations. I think people should look him up and you will find a lot of bullet manufactures use his theories for bullet drag/BC/form factor. I found a post that Barns Bullets posted some misinformation about Berger bullets needed 1800 FPS for proper expansion. This is misleading people in a negative way. Barns has refrained his post but you can still find the old post in the web. I would suggest following the manufactures suggestions on what is needed for their bullets for optimal performance. I used to use wet newspaper to test my bullets on proper expansion, but I would get my results at the actual distance, meaning 50 yards, 500 yards, 1000 yards 1500 yards and so on. I would NOT get my info at 50 yards and just make light loads so that they would get minimum velocities. I feel this would give improper date because the bullet would not have time to stabilize after leaving the barrel or get the velocity it needs to spin the bullet properly. Back in the day when I started my own research I found by using that method bullets would sometimes smack the newspaper sideways and not fly true. The bullets need time to stabilize and the proper velocity just to be able to exit the barrel correctly. That's a hole other discussion. Hope this all helps. Sorry so lengthy. It was not a easy answer.

 

[Stgraves260]

If your trying too discuss the Pros and cons of Berger bullets why don't you start your own thread on that subject this thread is about Hammer bullets no offense intended would like too hear the responses of Bergers might be interesting

I am not trying to discuss Berger bullets, someone asked me about them so I replied back to them and it just posted here to everyone.

 

[Mike Matteson]

I would like to see the shot placement pictures if possible. I have killed two elk on the same morning. One bull and one cow. The bull I took at 300 yards standing and hit him the middle of the heart. He dropped with his leg shooting to his sides and flat on his chest. he shook once and that was it. The Cow was wounded by my partner and was running. I move over on the cow that was still running. it was about a 300 yards shot again. That cow drop like a rock and again it's leg shot out from it's sides. Slide about +20' or so and stopped. Both hearts the bullet holes in them wasn't a 1/2" difference between the two. Don't ask me how I got the bullet location in about the same places. I had spent the day before tracking a wound cow that somebody else shot. I was totally beat at days end, and didn't recover the cow. I wasn't about to go through that again the next day. I 'll will add both hearts were split from bullet hole to the bottom of the heart. So I find it hard to believe what was stated on shot placement the animal didn't go down. I was using a 308 N Mag w/165 Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3300pfs. Taken 6 elk with that rifle and only one didn't go down on first shot. That was because I was a little far back. It didn't even show I had hit him. Second shot put him down for good. I have had have people tell me that they hit and elk 6 times in the heart and it didn't go down and ran off, never to be recovered.

 

[Stgraves260]

It appears that Berger bullets is revamping their bullets and how they get their data. I have been hunting long range sense the 90s. Started long range shooting in the 80s. That being said I stated in a comment I made that Berger bullet only need 1300 FPS for proper expansion. I have that data in my personal data book. I'm following up to give accurate and proper data. I can not find on any of my research to back up my info on 1300 FPS for proper expansion other than what I have in my sniper data book. I have had the 1300 FPS in my data sense the 90s because that's when my bullets were made. I do have bullets that we're made in the 2000s. On my 6.5 cal 140 grain bullets, the BC show to be .612. The new 6.5 140 BC show to be .600 and some .589 in social media. Berger has a video out that I will be getting soon that talks about all this. I will give updates when I get the video/DVD. As of now I will be using the 1300 FPS min for proper expansion on my pre 2000 Berger bullets because that's seams to be when they started making changes. Walt Berger sold the company in 1999 or 2000 so that probably has something to do with it. I have read that Bryian Litz is in Berger's research and development team. Mr Lits is the man who created JBM ballistic calculations. I think people should look him up and you will find a lot of bullet manufactures use his theories for bullet drag/BC/form factor. I found a post that Barns Bullets posted some misinformation about Berger bullets needed 1800 FPS for proper expansion. This is misleading people in a negative way. Barns has refrained his post but you can still find the old post in the web. I would suggest following the manufactures suggestions on what is needed for their bullets for optimal performance. I used to use wet newspaper to test my bullets on proper expansion, but I would get my results at the actual distance, meaning 50 yards, 500 yards, 1000 yards 1500 yards and so on. I would NOT get my info at 50 yards and just make light loads so that they would get minimum velocities. I feel this would give improper date because the bullet would not have time to stabilize after leaving the barrel. Back in the day when I started my own research I found by using that method bullets would sometimes smack the newspaper sideways and not fly true. The bullets need time to stabilize and the proper velocity just to be able to exit the barrel correctly. That's a hole other discussion. Hope this all helps. Sorry so lengthy. It was not a easy answer.

 

[ButterBean]

It appears that Berger bullets is revamping their bullets and how they get their data. I have been hunting long range sense the 90s. Started long range shooting in the 80s. That being said I stated in a comment I made that Berger bullet only need 1300 FPS for proper expansion. I have that data in my personal data book. I'm following up to give accurate and proper data. I can not find on any of my research to back up my info on 1300 FPS for proper expansion other than what I have in my sniper data book. I have had the 1300 FPS in my data sense the 90s because that's when my bullets were made. I do have bullets that we're made in the 2000s. On my 6.5 cal 140 grain bullets, the BC show to be .612. The new 6.5 140 BC show to be .600 and some .589 in social media. Berger has a video out that I will be getting soon that talks about all this. I will give updates when I get the video/DVD. As of now I will be using the 1300 FPS min for proper expansion on my pre 2000 Berger bullets because that's seams to be when they started making changes. Walt Berger sold the company in 1999 or 2000 so that probably has something to do with it. I have read that Bryian Litz is in Berger's research and development team. Mr Lits is the man who created JBM ballistic calculations. I think people should look him up and you will find a lot of bullet manufactures use his theories for bullet drag/BC/form factor. I found a post that Barns Bullets posted some misinformation about Berger bullets needed 1800 FPS for proper expansion. This is misleading people in a negative way. Barns has refrained his post but you can still find the old post in the web. I would suggest following the manufactures suggestions on what is needed for their bullets for optimal performance. I used to use wet newspaper to test my bullets on proper expansion, but I would get my results at the actual distance, meaning 50 yards, 500 yards, 1000 yards 1500 yards and so on. I would NOT get my info at 50 yards and just make light loads so that they would get minimum velocities. I feel this would give improper date because the bullet would not have time to stabilize after leaving the barrel. Back in the day when I started my own research I found by using that method bullets would sometimes smack the newspaper sideways and not fly true. The bullets need time to stabilize and the proper velocity just to be able to exit the barrel correctly. That's a hole other discussion. Hope this all helps. Sorry so lengthy. It was not a easy answer.

What's your deal Neighbor ? are you just trying to make folks mad ?

 

[snox801]

" There is no guarantees or absolutes in life". I have come to except that. All thing fail, nothing is perfect, there is always room for improvement. Seek perfection as if were gold. Be willing to except change. Adapt to your environment and any situation and you will become successful.

I'll play,
Yes no guarantees but as stated when you have a chance to reduce those like pencils or explosions you can take it. Berger may kill faster than hammers but if I can have a 99 percent change my bullet will work every time or a 94 percent chance I'll take the 99.
Seems like your missing my point.

 

[Stgraves260]

I'll play,
Yes no guarantees but as stated when you have a chance to reduce those like pencils or explosions you can take it. Berger may kill faster than hammers but if I can have a 99 percent change my bullet will work every time or a 94 percent chance I'll take the 99.
Seems like your missing my point.

Play? Taking a life of anything is not a game. When you squeeze that trigger you can not hit reset. I have seen more injured animals shot with 300 Win Mags than any other rifle caliber. IMO I feel they are overconfident.They pick up that 300 WM and load a 180 grain solid bullet and get upset because they have to track that deer because the bullet did not expand. It just left a dime size hole. I have had many bullets fail. Noslers, Hornady, Seirra, Barnes, and yes Berger's. With my experience I have just had more success with Berger's. Some people like solid core bullets over bullets that fragment. I have shot wet newspaper from 50 yards out to 1500 ish yards and have found out that a 180 grain bullet from a 300 Win Mag does not penetrate and more than a 6.5 Cal 140 grain bullet from my 260 Remington. Other people may get different results than me but that's just what I have found in my own research. My research was comparing solid to sold bullets and bullets that fragment to others that fragment. I found that your bigger caliber rifles shooting heavier bullets need a higher velocity than a smaller caliber rifle shooting smaller bullets to get about the same penetration. IMO it's do to more SD in the larger diameter bullets. There is a way to figure this out as well, without even pulling a trigger. When I first got into this in the late 80s early 90s. I was sitting at a table with some play-do. I rolled it up into a ball and poked it with a small #2 pencil then tried it again with a large kindergarten like pencil. It was much more easy with the small pencil to poke threw than the large pencil. My dad said I was on to something. I was just playing with some kids. He was more into reloading shot guns at the time than rifles, however his good friend was into reloading rifles. That's where the fun started. My dad and his friend still talk about that with me today. It makes me wonder how all these longe range bullet development manufacturers started. What made them change designs in a bullet. Walt Berger's story along with Bryan Litz is pretty interesting.

 

[Pdvdh]

If I was to shoot a game animal with my hamBurger bullets, I'd load them butt end forward. At least get semi-wad cutter performance...

 

[ButterBean]

Play? Taking a life of anything is not a game. When you squeeze that trigger you can not hit reset. I have seen more injured animals shot with 300 Win Mags than any other rifle caliber. IMO I feel they are overconfident.They pick up that 300 WM and load a 180 grain solid bullet and get upset because they have to track that deer because the bullet did not expand. It just left a dime size hole. I have had many bullets fail. Noslers, Hornady, Seirra, Barnes, and yes Berger's. With my experience I have just had more success with Berger's. Some people like solid core bullets over bullets that fragment. I have shot wet newspaper from 50 yards out to 1500 ish yards and have found out that a 180 grain bullet from a 300 Win Mag does not penetrate and more than a 6.5 Cal 140 grain bullet from my 260 Remington. Other people may get different results than me but that's just what I have found in my own research. My research was comparing solid to sold bullets and bullets that fragment to others that fragment. I found that your bigger caliber rifles shooting heavier bullets need a higher velocity than a smaller caliber rifle shooting smaller bullets to get about the same penetration. IMO it's do to more SD in the larger diameter bullets. There is a way to figure this out as well, without even pulling a trigger. When I first got into this in the late 80s early 90s. I was sitting at a table with some play-do. I rolled it up into a ball and poked it with a small #2 pencil then tried it again with a large kindergarten like pencil. It was much more easy with the small pencil to poke threw than the large pencil. My dad said I was on to something. I was just playing with some kids. He was more into reloading shot guns at the time than rifles, however his good friend was into reloading rifles. That's where the fun started. My dad and his friend still talk about that with me today. It makes me wonder how all these longe range bullet development manufacturers started. What made them change designs in a bullet. Walk Berger's story along with Bryan Litz is pretty interesting.

If I was to shoot a game animal with my hamBurger bullets, I'd load them butt end forward. At least get semi-wad cutter performance...

We are way off topic so that's enough Berger talk once again This is the thread title


Hammer Bullets and Hyper Velocity, The Misconception

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

id guess you dont wanna say actual lowest minimum expansion in public forum.. to keep people thinking thats the norm

but it would be interesting to hear the lowest expansion results with say a 199 hunter vs a 199 shock ( the hollow is larger on the shocks , correct ?? )
or any equal bullet weigh between the 2