Great Podcast on terminal performance.

For ease of reference. Below are screenshots from Hornady's own website documenting 10% organic ballistic gelatin tests with various eldm bullets.

147eldm 6.5 creedmoor
View attachment 498521
106gr eldm tap 6mm arc
View attachment 498522

178gr eldm 308win
View attachment 498523

Now those are three examples with the substrate being plywood for all three. I'm shocked those match bullets didn't just "blow up"........
So what do you mean exactly when you say "substrate plywood?" Be very specific. Angle of impact, thickness of plywood, etc. Remember, gel is a lot easier on bullets than actual living animal. Also, the die in the gel is not present in clear gel. Clear gel may actually minimize the size of the temporary wound cavity. All i can tell you that the single hit percentage of dead right there kills went up when I started using our bullets, and we got the same feedback from our customers.
 
So what do you mean exactly when you say "substrate plywood?" Be very specific. Angle of impact, thickness of plywood, etc. Remember, gel is a lot easier on bullets than actual living animal. Also, the die in the gel is not present in clear gel. Clear gel may actually minimize the size of the temporary wound cavity. All i can tell you that the single hit percentage of dead right there kills went up when I started using our bullets, and we got the same feedback from our customers.

That explains the exact testing protocol, feel free to educate yourself. I'm not here to sell anything or anyone on what to use.

If you do not understand the fbi protocol for organic ballistic gelatin testing, I would assume you've never tested bullets in that manner.

It's not a "I think" or "i feel" thing. It's data. That's all. Take from it what you will.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So what do you mean exactly when you say "substrate plywood?" Be very specific. Angle of impact, thickness of plywood, etc. Remember, gel is a lot easier on bullets than actual living animal. Also, the die in the gel is not present in clear gel. Clear gel may actually minimize the size of the temporary wound cavity. All i can tell you that the single hit percentage of dead right there kills went up when I started using our bullets, and we got the same feedback from our customers.
I understand the feedback may be present. But there is just simply no realistic or explainable reason for that to be the case. A standard mono bullet with pedals that peel back. There is simply nothing out of the ordinary or extraordinary that could create anything special as far as killing goes. Great BC's and accuracy, could absolutely be the case. But something astronomical in the lethal design causing an increase in DRT's with the same exact shot placements and angles compared to other bullets, of similar lethal design is highly, HIGHLY unlikely. Probably more quartering too shots or quartering away shots, or high shoulder shots. Or simply excited customers actually paying attention and/or wanting to support a new company with their info.
 
Anecdotally I killed two bulls last year with the 140gr eldm. I've killed several antelope with the same bullet. I have seen zero cause for concern with the 140gr eldm's capability. I will be using the 108eldm this year for a bull, cow, and hopefully a buck antelope and deer. I plan on documenting the trauma caused on each animal. I will report back with my findings.
 
Anecdotally I killed two bulls last year with the 140gr eldm. I've killed several antelope with the same bullet. I have seen zero cause for concern with the 140gr eldm's capability. I will be using the 108eldm this year for a bull, cow, and hopefully a buck antelope and deer. I plan on documenting the trauma caused on each animal. I will report back with my findings.
I have a 6 PRC that shoots the 108 ELDM's at 3200fps. But I just can't bring myself to not shoot my 300 NMI with 225 ELDM's. Even though I truly know the 108 would kill extremely well also.
 
If anyone is losing their mind about terminal ballistics vis a vie killing with match ammo go listen to their episodes about testing scopes and then the one about group size and statistics.

Minds will be blown and Fudds will be digging their trenches even deeper than before.
 
I understand the feedback may be present. But there is just simply no realistic or explainable reason for that to be the case. A standard mono bullet with pedals that peel back. There is simply nothing out of the ordinary or extraordinary that could create anything special as far as killing goes. Great BC's and accuracy, could absolutely be the case. But something astronomical in the lethal design causing an increase in DRT's with the same exact shot placements and angles compared to other bullets, of similar lethal design is highly, HIGHLY unlikely. Probably more quartering too shots or quartering away shots, or high shoulder shots. Or simply excited customers actually paying attention and/or wanting to support a new company with their info.
First of all, you did not answer my question. Great BCs and accuracy are intimately related to the bullet design. What do you call designing a bullet of such a shape that is aerodynamically efficient that minimizes drag? Is not that part of the design of the bullet? Petaling also requires specific design features for increased reliability of expansion at lower impact velocities, and requires an understanding of bullet petaling and tip design gleaned through testing various hollow point and tip designs and how they separate from each other reliably. Reliability of expansion alone contributes to higher first round kills. Furthermore, to have all of these features in the same bullet is absolutely related to the design of the bullet. All I can say is try designing a bullet that has or exceeds these features. It is the fact that all these features that exist in the same bullet that increases the lethal first hit percentage while at the same time minimizing meat damage.
 
First of all, you did not answer my question. Great BCs and accuracy are intimately related to the bullet design. What do you call designing a bullet of such a shape that is aerodynamically efficient that minimizes drag? Is not that part of the design of the bullet? Petaling also requires specific design features for increased reliability of expansion at lower impact velocities, and requires an understanding of bullet petaling and tip design gleaned through testing various hollow point and tip designs and how they separate from each other reliably. Reliability of expansion alone contributes to higher first round kills. Furthermore, to have all of these features in the same bullet is absolutely related to the design of the bullet. All I can say is try designing a bullet that has or exceeds these features. It is the fact that all these features that exist in the same bullet that increases the lethal first hit percentage while at the same time minimizing meat damage.
Yeah said an increase DRT kills. Not lethal first round hits. Huge difference there. I was just saying that's a huge claim with the DRT stuff, and not really probable given it's design for lethality. It's just a mono bullet that the pedals peel back. Nothing attributing to DRT trauma would really be achieved by that. Not saying it's not an excellent shooting, or excellent killing bullet. Yeah I understand it may hit with a little more velocity (which is what kills with a mono) than other mono's because if it's higher BC. It's just not going to cause any extreme trauma for some rapid increase in DRT's. Maybe taking more shoulder shots instead of lung shots, since it's a mono or something. But it very likely isn't bullet related.
 

That explains the exact testing protocol, feel free to educate yourself. I'm not here to sell anything or anyone on what to use.

If you do not understand the fbi protocol for organic ballistic gelatin testing, I would assume you've never tested bullets in that manner.

It's not a "I think" or "i feel" thing. It's data. That's all. Take from it what you will.
Not sure what you are saying. The clear gels meet the same BB penetration tests. Are you saying that data derived from clear gel testing is invalid? How do you know that. Those gels are very stable and a lot of mechanistic behavior of bullets can be gleaned from their use. The whole notion that a gel, organic or otherwise, is an accurate surrogate for live animals is almost laughable. Gels, organic or otherwise, are much more uniform in density and structure than a live animal. Things like failure to expand reliably as a function of tip design and materials as well as hollow point design are readily observable in organic as well as properly calibrated inorganic gels. Bullet expansion or fragmentation, penetration and wound channel size are also readily observed in either gel type. The fact is that expansion and penetration are readily observed in either gel as long as the densities of the gels are the same. In my own experience, the clear gel testing we did with the 150 gr 308BD bullet in gel predicted that it could penetrate up to 30-35" depending on the speed of impact and degree of expansion. When I recovered the bullet that killed a large Coastal Black Bear that had been shot at about a 25 degree angle through the chest traveled 32" through the animal to lodge under the pelt in a fully expanded state. The clear gel testing accurately predicted not only the expansion, but also the penetration depth. Clear gel also predicts that heavier bullets will penetrate deeper than lighter bullets given the same degree of expansion. I don't doubt that organic gels, whose density can vary as a function of temperature, could predict the same behaviors.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_6956.jpeg
    IMG_6956.jpeg
    1.4 MB · Views: 91
Not sure what you are saying. The clear gels meet the same BB penetration tests. Are you saying that data derived from clear gel testing is invalid? How do you know that. Those gels are very stable and a lot of mechanistic behavior of bullets can be gleaned from their use. The whole notion that a gel, organic or otherwise, is an accurate surrogate for live animals is almost laughable. Gels, organic or otherwise, are much more uniform in density and structure than a live animal. Things like failure to expand reliably as a function of tip design and materials as well as hollow point design are readily observable in organic as well as properly calibrated inorganic gels. Bullet expansion or fragmentation, penetration and wound channel size are also readily observed in either gel type. The fact is that expansion and penetration are readily observed in either gel as long as the densities of the gels are the same. In my own experience, the clear gel testing we did with the 150 gr 308BD bullet in gel predicted that it could penetrate up to 30-35" depending on the speed of impact and degree of expansion. When I recovered the bullet that killed a large Coastal Black Bear that had been shot at about a 25 degree angle through the chest traveled 32" through the animal to lodge under the pelt in a fully expanded state. The clear gel testing accurately predicted not only the expansion, but also the penetration depth. Clear gel also predicts that heavier bullets will penetrate deeper than lighter bullets given the same degree of expansion. I don't doubt that organic gels, whose density can vary as a function of temperature, could predict the same behaviors.

I'm not here to argue with you. I'm also not here to read your endless sales pitches. Sell your bullets to someone else.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Give it a listen if you have time. Tons of calibrated ballistic gel testing and field testing info.

View attachment 497316
So I took time to listen. Very interesting but nowhere could I find or hear the names of the people on the podcast. Who are they, especially the main guy talking? Lots of good points, a couple of points I'm not sure I agree with. I would like to know who is talking and their background. Listening with an open mind.
Most everyone doing podcasts introduces themselves, then their guest with some background. At the least, put the info in the comments or on the website. I went all through it. Nothing. Frustrating.
 
Never mind. Found most of what I need. In reference to that podcast,,,,If I have to dig for it, what are you hiding? I'm not asking you to spoon feed me, but don't make me play detective. Or do you think you are Elvis and I'm just supposed to KNOW who you are and that you just left the building?

Still chewing on the 2 hours of discussion.
 
Never mind. Found most of what I need. In reference to that podcast,,,,If I have to dig for it, what are you hiding? I'm not asking you to spoon feed me, but don't make me play detective. Or do you think you are Elvis and I'm just supposed to KNOW who you are and that you just left the building?

Still chewing on the 2 hours of discussion.
The main guy talking does in depth ballistic and gear testing (primarily shooting related) for the military, so they hide his identity.

The other two hosts of the podcast are avid hunters and shooters. One owns Unknown Munitions and the other is part owner of Rokslide.
 
Question. Anyone actually using these on game. @fordy please?
ELD-M bullets referenced in the podcast.
How is the bullet path? Is it straight line penetration?
I get the podcast "I don't care what the bullet ends up looking like, how did it perform. What does the necropsy show for damage".
But where does it end up?

Reason for my question. Some of my old past experience with some match bullets used for hunting showed once the bullet became unstable in flesh, the bullet path went unpredictable. Way off course. Straight one time and next boomerang.

I have used and provided blood tracking dogs for years, so I got to recover game and see some "bullet failures" other may seldom/never see.
 

Recent Posts

Top