Giving out Load Advice caution!

[RYEWSKY25284]

First, the following is not intended as an attack on anyone either stated or implied. My only intention is to respectfully suggest to all posters to think about the ramifications of what they are posting.

In a recent post, there was load data that was shared to the OP that was considerably hotter than accepted/published loads. I think I put a permanent crease in the seat of my office chair. I took the time this morning and looked thru a number of both new and old manuals for a load that hot, couldn't find it listed anywhere. I shoot an improved version of that round and don't even load it that hot.

Here are my thoughts; we should all be very careful sharing loads that are not published by the manufactures for a number of reasons.

You never know the condition of the rifle that the load might find its way into.

You don't know the experience of the individual that might try it.

Individual components i.e. cases, primers and bullets all have an effect on pressure. Simple change of a bullet or primer on a hot load could be devastating.

Back in the day (I'm dating myself now), we played with a lot of crazy loads trying to find that sweet spot. I won't even hint on this open forum what we were doing because someone might decide to try it themselves without the foundation and knowledge to do it correctly. Many shooters wanted me to share what we were doing. Always told them I could not because of the liability was something that I was not willing to risk. I even got accused of being a jerk for not sharing, wasn't being a jerk, just being safe.

Thankfully, with the current wide variety of components available to us today, there is no need to do that anymore. Well, I still do it for my BR rigs

In the 70's and early 80's, I had the privilege of managing a small chain of hunting and fishing stores (3 stores) in California. It was store policy that no employee was allowed to quote load data. If a customer wanted load information, the employee was required to grab a published load manual, look it up and show the customer. This removed any and all liability to the company, and it was just plan safe. Any deviation from that were grounds for immediate dismissal.

There was a well know shop in So Cal that was put out of business after an employee gave a customer bad loading advice. The resulting law suit after the gun blew up (Super Blackhawk) and the shooter badly injured forced the store to close the doors, sad.

So again, this is NOT an attack. Only respectfully suggesting caution when giving advice or sharing load data.

First and foremost, we don't want to see anyone get hurt. Second, in today's crazy sue happy world, none of us need to expose ourselves to the possible liability. Bad advice could even drag LRH into a lawsuit. Chances of LRH losing a lawsuit because someone gave out bad advice would be pretty slim. Put the possibility of getting drug into one that would cost a lot of money to defend is there.

Everyone be well and safe.

PS. It is sad that in today's world we need to think "can I get sued for this?"

Well stated and worth noting.

 

[Korhil78]

I don't know what it is about the 7 Rem Mag on this site but man, I have seen more people post super hot loads for it than any other cartridge and justify it by saying it's fine in their gun. I often wonder what "fine" is. Just because your bolt doesn't lock up and your primer isn't blown out doesn't mean it's "fine". After reloading for a while, one "usually" becomes aware of what to trust and what not to trust just by using a little common sense. I usually pay it no attention. But they do get a little mad when people call them out on it.

I can see it being a large concern for new reloaders though.

 

[JAYgs8163]

The advice you get off the net for anything should be used with caution. Advice is only advice and nothing more. Example: people self diagnosing medical conditions. You type in a symptom and before you know it you think your dying, have aids, cancer, tumors, etc...... everything advice solution driven should be used cautiously. IMO, excellent post!

 

[AI338LM]

Yep, they can sue you. And the Gubernment can kill anyone they want to kill, any time they want to kill them, using any method they desire.

 

[John Polk]

No offense, can you provide any documentation that the "well known store in cali" was shut down from a reloading lawsuit? Or was it just rumors? Never heard of anyone getting sued for reloading data, especially an online forum or member. People should think twice about reloading over book loads, but we need to remember that book loads are mild today compared to 30+years ago.
Ultimately the person reloading holds the responsibility of their own safety
The real problem is the "Instant gratification attitude " of the forum community in general-- when someone lists a load, you can use the load data as a suggestion and work up to it (just like all the reloading books say-- but people dont read instructions or books any more)
If you live your life in fear of possible lawsuits, youd never be able to do anything or go anywhere

No offense, can you provide any documentation that the "well known store in cali" was shut down from a reloading lawsuit? Or was it just rumors? Never heard of anyone getting sued for reloading data, especially an online forum or member. People should think twice about reloading over book loads, but we need to remember that book loads are mild today compared to 30+years ago.
Ultimately the person reloading holds the responsibility of their own safety
The real problem is the "Instant gratification attitude " of the forum community in general-- when someone lists a load, you can use the load data as a suggestion and work up to it (just like all the reloading books say-- but people dont read instructions or books any more)
If you live your life in fear of possible lawsuits, youd never be able to do anything or go anywhere

"Chances of LRH losing a lawsuit because someone gave out bad advice would be pretty slim."
Very wise words Randy and Cohunt if you knew the cost of litigation these days you wouldn't worry at all about the result at the end of the trial you'd be bankrupt long before that.
My only concern is the thrust of both of your comments is what could happen to us if we gave bad advice when I think the real concern is what would happen to some poor soul who took our bad advice. We have no idea who's reading what's put it in this forum and it for easy someone, without any education in the safety of our sport, to pick up a thoughtless remark. That poor soul would have a life threatening injury or possibly worse and will be totally confused about what happened. Whether he or she ever brought suit or not they be just as injured . I'm old enough and cynical enough that I rarely speak up for my "fellow man", but I think in this instance it is appropriate. You your advice should be followed to the letter Randy and I appreciate you giving it do us.

 

[beto]

No offense, can you provide any documentation that the "well known store in cali" was shut down from a reloading lawsuit? Or was it just rumors? Never heard of anyone getting sued for reloading data, especially an online forum or member. People should think twice about reloading over book loads, but we need to remember that book loads are mild today compared to 30+years ago.
Ultimately the person reloading holds the responsibility of their own safety
The real problem is the "Instant gratification attitude " of the forum community in general-- when someone lists a load, you can use the load data as a suggestion and work up to it (just like all the reloading books say-- but people dont read instructions or books any more)
If you live your life in fear of possible lawsuits, youd never be able to do anything or go anywhere

My very thoughts on the matter .We are adults and responsible for our own actions. Nothing wrong with posting what works in YOUR gun . I've been reloading here in So. Cal. since 1971 .You might tell me what load you're using in your gun but I go by established data and start low while testing it . If I tell you what I'm using I don't expect you to use that same data in your gun just 'cause I'm using it in mine .We're here to share experiences .

 

[Okanogan]

It's nice to read a thread with a civil discussion that stays mostly on topic.

Personally, I always understood that any load data I got online needed to be approached with caution. In the spirit of trying to advise others to be cautious, I can't tell you the number of times I have encountered published load data from manuals that showed oblivious signs of over pressure before I got to the published max load. Some load data (e.g. Alliant) tends to do this more often than others. In my opinion, it doesn't matter if you got the information from a manual or from another source, it would be wise to approach load development with caution for your particular weapon. If you are loading outside SAMMI specs, e.g. extended COAL, then this is doubly true as it wouldn't too difficult to have a situation where what works in one gun is unsafe when you jam it in the lands on another weapon. You can even buy factory ammo (e.g., ABM/ Berger) with extended an COAL which might not function or be safe in certain weapons.

 

[Huntz]

I think anyone with a half a brain would not use someone else`s reloading data period.Anyone who would do that probably should not reload.I also think that the folks here probably know that and are not gullible children.I think that the ops intentions were good posting this thread but it was probably not needed.JMHO,Huntz

 

[Randy Tidwell]

Guys, I have not read a response on this thread I don't agree with.

I may have come off more worried about a law suite than someone getting injured. Not the case, I never want to see someone hurt.

But being close to a couple of BS lawsuits, I trust most lawyers about as much as a P'd off rattle snake.

Anyone that follows loading advice without confirming it to be safe is at fault, unfortunately, being right does not keep you out of a lawsuit.

Guess I'm getting old, and way too careful.

In my younger days, I was the typical redneck that said just before I died "Hey Ya'll, watch this!" Like 150 mph on a motorcycle thru Eldorado Park in Long Beach on Wardlow, Yup, did it and survived to tell about it. But I would never tell anyone about that stupid day, lol.

 

[John Polk]

Guys, I have not read a response on this thread I don't agree with.

I may have come off more worried about a law suite than someone getting injured. Not the case, I never want to see someone hurt.

But being close to a couple of BS lawsuits, I trust most lawyers about as much as a P'd off rattle snake.

Anyone that follows loading advice without confirming it to be safe is at fault, unfortunately, being right does not keep you out of a lawsuit.

Guess I'm getting old, and way too careful.

In my younger days, I was the typical redneck that said just before I died "Hey Ya'll, watch this!" Like 150 mph on a motorcycle thru Eldorado Park in Long Beach on Wardlow, Yup, did it and survived to tell about it. But I would never tell anyone about that stupid day, lol.

Randy if you read all the above comments you will note that virtually everybody who has something they say knows what they're talking about. The real danger is a neophyte gets ahold of a discussion like this or some other discussion in which loads are being mentioned and doesn't understand what's going on. As an example we commonly use the amount of grains for each individual powder. Some of these new people do not understand the difference in burning rate of powders and therefore 46 grains of one powder is equivalent to 46 grains of another. I know this sounds, but it something that happens and a mistake with a high explosives that we use can be catastrophic. If we constantly refer people back to loads that are listed in published manuals then they have to look that up. If they go beyond that and accept a unsafe load that's their problem, but we have not contributed to their injury.

 

[Mc Fraser]

Your point is very well made and I believe a reminder should be very well welcomed now and then. Safety is paramount to our hobby and although some might take offence it's better to be reminded than to be hurt.
When I ask for reloading data I ask details about the load as well. Let's say someone says use H1000 79gr etc for 300 win mag. I always ask or check the book to find the max recommended load and from there I go even lower to reach the OP's load. Not to be a heartless mtf but if you blindly use a load you deserve the consequences which I hope are only firearm-related and not personal injury.

 

[freddiej]

I have seen some really bad reloading data uploaded on some of my old haunts IPSC/IDPA blogs and message boards. mostly for super hot 45 ACP, 9MM, 9X21, 9X23, 40 S&W and 10MM. most dealing only with fully supported barrels. personally I would never use the data uploaded since I found a load that was super fun to shoot and really easy on my gun. but I have seen the damage these loads worked their "magic" on friend's guns. I have rebuilt many of my friend's IPSC and IDPA guns. utter insanity if you ask me. but they knew the risks and did it anyway.
I also experimented around in the late 1990's with a new powder from Hodgdon's. I never had a really hot load but with a 200 grain 45 ACP semi wad cutter I had to reduce my recoil spring because the load was supper fast with below standard pressures. it was the funniest thing watching my gun short cycle and put a 200 grain slug out at major. I loved shooting that load. I never wavered from it either.
As for some of the load data I have seen here. I always check the loads, if I have that caliber, with one of my many factory manuals. if they seem too hot, I disregard them and never think twice.
as for powder recommendations and such. if I give them, or give a pet load from my past, I always am honest. I will say this load only works in my gun due to the large or oversized chamber. after that I will give the factory load limits so they can use the published data to brew up their loads. the gun in question was sold to a client with the load data. I no longer give that load out. the gun I replaced it with uses a very different and much more modest powder charge.

 

[blueprairiedog]

I had my 338 rum built from what I learned on this site and some of the load data came from here but I did more research on the load data before loading but I can't recall getting bad input from here and that's why I always start right here thanks to all of you and the nat sir custom guns and ammo

 

[Bob Wright]

New SAAMI spec cartridges without or with little loading data is what makes me really think it thru, challenge assumptions by digging into velocity claims. For me, yes I will ask in this forum and certainly work from a low pressure, all the way up to a max velocity that I can point to in powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers of similar cartridge designs. The claims of way fast speeds by the few are outliers that aren't worth chasing. Even at the chance of missing an upper node, I'm usually more comfortable staying away from hot loads. If it disappoints in velocity and/or accuracy, I look for another similar and sensible combination of components.
Is cautious testing costing me some barrel life? YES.
I can always screw on another one, way down the road.