Giving out Load Advice caution!

[Skimbleshanks]

I think personal responsibility has to come in somewhere. Every manual starts out roughly the same way. Safety precautions, how ammo works, and the process of reloading. If "some guy" tells me 70 grains of such and such powder and I go use 70 grains without confirming that that is a safe load. Who weighed that powder? Who seated a bullet over that charge? Who squeezed the trigger? It would be my fault for lack of due diligence or care for myself. We are all comfortable with a different ammount of risk. Some people never load over book max. Some people load till pressure signs then back off a touch.

 

[AlphaDogs]

Rather a shame a thread like this even needs to be started.
There is enough loading data that has been tested and verified that no one need ever ask for it on a forum.

Amazed that anyone asks ---- more amazed that anyone answers.

 

[Frank Kalisz]

I feel most comfortable with running a chronometer when I work up my loads. When muzzle velocity approaches maximum book velocity, it's time to stop even when you don't have pressure signs or when you're not up to max book powder load.
But I'm not particularly looking for hottest loads in any case - I want accuracy more than speed.
Good luck to anyone starting out and please be safe!

 

[AlphaDogs]

How does knowing what time it is help ? KIDDING !

 

[5.56×250]

It cant be over stated that to many that come to this site for advice, the high post count members are given alot of respect, and rightfully so. The problem that arises from that respect is some novice loaders take the advice given as the end all be all truth . They blindly jump right into the deep end of the pressure scale because "..........." said it was a gtg load in their gun.
Case in point, several years ago i worked at a local gun store. I had built a rep as someone that could answer questions reliably and give good advice. One day, one of our local tinkerers asked me if reloder 7 and accurate 7 were the same powder . Without even looking up from the pistol i was cleaning i said i dont believe so, but i had heard that one of the two powder companies was planning to buy the other out. He took that statement as good enough proof that they were one in the same ( i know right ?) and he proceeded to buy a pound of fast burning pistol powder to work up some loads for his and one of my fellow workers 45-70 rifles ! As luck would have it, the first round touched off was in my fellow workers Browning falling block rifle and not the reloaders marlin guide gun . The rifle knocked the shooter off the bench and knocked him out momentarily ! The casing didnt have any of the engraving on the headstamp showing caliber or brand anymore either ! The gun held up and no one was seriously hurt. , thank the good Lord . Had the guide gun been the first fired, i am certain the outcome would have been much worse. The guy that loaded the cases took the blame for the mishap and i never gave comments off the top of my head about anything pertaining to reloading again .
Some people dont think clearly about how dangerous reloading can be and dont give a second thought about taking the word of someone respected on the subject .
When we give loading advice, please do so with the knowledge that some folks dont think for themselves and shouldnt be reloading in the first place. Ypu might just save a life !

 

[milo-2]

If it's not written in the powder manufacturer's manual, it's not proven to be safe.

That is funny considering the most popular loading manuals are from bullet manufacturers and not powder companies. Powder companies cannot test all bullets, and bullet companies cannot test all powders.
This is why I like Quickload, and it is rare I open a manual today. Most manuals today are watered down in our litigation prone society. Berger themselves will tell you all their data based off QL profiles, and are low, no reason to use max in this situation. I am not condoning a hot load, just saying.
I understand the issues with publishing a hot load for someone to try, but the caution side of the matter rests with the person using said information.
Truthfully, this internet age has about spoiled all involved, it is too easy to ask for anything these days. IMO, if something goes awry from bad info, it is on the guy that used it, not the giver. Pay your dues, do your own load workup, learn something along the way in the process.
Geez, we have a thread going on concerning a guy busting his bolt handle off chambering a rd. The consensus of advice given to the guy is to take up gunsmithing, NO, take a reloading class. As a society, we have became too dependent on others.

 

[AlphaDogs]

To condense: Don't give reloading advice other than "Buy several books and read and follow them."

 

[Dirtrax]

The outliers are wildcat cartridges. Common sense and sound methods can mitigate the obvious dangers pretty easily assuming one possesses these traits. My particular rifle roughly matches stated velocities at 2-3 grains less than what I've read. The avid handloader should recognize the variables and use any data as a guide for potential loads and not as gospel. I want to attain the full potential of my selected cartridges so I load to the highest node that balances velocity, accuracy, and safety. Some are pretty hot, others not so much so. Drop charts almost always indicate that there just isn't advantage enough to warrant risking the next higher node. There is a distinct difference between handloaders and reloaders. I guess in closing I'd say the chronograph is you friend.

 

[AlphaDogs]

Those who deal in Wildcats would be smart to follow published tested data. Absent that you need a chronograph and pressure testing transducer equipment.

 

[Scott E Ames]

Another point to remember with all of the talk about "good old days" reloading data showing much higher load values is that "all" of those powders were different batches of powder with a number of them being surplus military bulk powder simply packaged and labeled versus our newly produced powders with proprietary coatings and who knows what else that would significantly alter their pressure curves. I also think the novice reloader rarely understands that one primer is not equal to every other primer in the store. Pulling your reloading press handle makes you a little smarter every time you do it, if you are paying attention.

Remember if you get unexpected velocity you are likely dealing with dangerous pressure even if you don't see the conventional pressure signs in your case or bolt lift. ( this part was for the new loaders, not those of us with arthritis in our reloading press shoulders )

 

[JTB]

If you follow this theme to a final conclusion you might as well state that no information should be posted at all. All posts can be taken out of context or misstated put the reader at risk for some reason. I have one two rifles of the same caliber and one will handle 2 grains more powder than the other. Every load can be impose risk in some way and we can't describe every possible circumstance in which that risk can be avoided. I like to see what others are doing even if it sounds a little crazy and might give me reason to ask for further information. Why don't we just have an option to attach a disclaimer to each post if this is a concern, ie, any statement made in this post can be dangerous and may result in permanent harm or death. Read at your own risk.
Honestly, this is sad and could negatively impact the amount of useful information member are willing to post.

 

[knapper]

It is hard to imagine a more stupid or dangerous way of making decisions than
putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong

 

[gator378]

First, the following is not intended as an attack on anyone either stated or implied. My only intention is to respectfully suggest to all posters to think about the ramifications of what they are posting.

In a recent post, there was load data that was shared to the OP that was considerably hotter than accepted/published loads. I think I put a permanent crease in the seat of my office chair. I took the time this morning and looked thru a number of both new and old manuals for a load that hot, couldn't find it listed anywhere. I shoot an improved version of that round and don't even load it that hot.

Here are my thoughts; we should all be very careful sharing loads that are not published by the manufactures for a number of reasons.

You never know the condition of the rifle that the load might find its way into.

You don't know the experience of the individual that might try it.

Individual components i.e. cases, primers and bullets all have an effect on pressure. Simple change of a bullet or primer on a hot load could be devastating.

Back in the day (I'm dating myself now), we played with a lot of crazy loads trying to find that sweet spot. I won't even hint on this open forum what we were doing because someone might decide to try it themselves without the foundation and knowledge to do it correctly. Many shooters wanted me to share what we were doing. Always told them I could not because of the liability was something that I was not willing to risk. I even got accused of being a jerk for not sharing, wasn't being a jerk, just being safe.

Thankfully, with the current wide variety of components available to us today, there is no need to do that anymore. Well, I still do it for my BR rigs

In the 70's and early 80's, I had the privilege of managing a small chain of hunting and fishing stores (3 stores) in California. It was store policy that no employee was allowed to quote load data. If a customer wanted load information, the employee was required to grab a published load manual, look it up and show the customer. This removed any and all liability to the company, and it was just plan safe. Any deviation from that were grounds for immediate dismissal.

There was a well know shop in So Cal that was put out of business after an employee gave a customer bad loading advice. The resulting law suit after the gun blew up (Super Blackhawk) and the shooter badly injured forced the store to close the doors, sad.

So again, this is NOT an attack. Only respectfully suggesting caution when giving advice or sharing load data.

First and foremost, we don't want to see anyone get hurt. Second, in today's crazy sue happy world, none of us need to expose ourselves to the possible liability. Bad advice could even drag LRH into a lawsuit. Chances of LRH losing a lawsuit because someone gave out bad advice would be pretty slim. Put the possibility of getting drug into one that would cost a lot of money to defend is there.

Everyone be well and safe.

PS. It is sad that in today's world we need to think "can I get sued for this?"

Any load I ever got off the internet is cross checked against Sierra, Hornady, Nosler , or Western data. Plus a few more loading books I have.

 

[Deleted member 103481]

I can understand stores not giving out load data, and I can understand why berger has stopped giving it out in written form. I always call them now to get a starting point, since I'm often using their bullets. It's harder with Hornady as they want you to buy their book.

It seems the biggest issues often come from the people who comment on someone else's thread about how great their load is. This is common with newer cartridges being released. "Why would I buy ___ when my ____ gets ____ bullion fps with a small wheelbarrow load of ___.

On pet load threads you see major trends and can often tell when something is off or high, on people's personal rifle logs you see them work up with their rifle.

At some point we have to decide what's better for the sport and for each other, providing data that others can use or hide it all away and let everyone figure it out for themselves. Eventually people are going to have to take some personal responsibility, and before I ever started reloading I had probably been told 100 times to start low or to go by the book and to not take others load data as gospel. People should be gathering information from all sources and making an educated decision based on what they are seeing. With newer cartridges or wildcats is often difficult to find safe jumping off points, this forum and others have been vital for doing that. I have a combination I want to play with in 243 right now that I can find little data on anywhere but searching online. Neutering the data we share with each other because a few idiots don't follow our repeated warnings is IMO not a good idea, but perhaps when and how we give out that data should be considered more critically.

I am very pro data and information sharing, but will consider how and when I deliver that information more in the future.