Footpounds of Energy Limit

[Rich Coyle]

A professional gets paid for what he does. The vast majority of long range hunters don't get paid to hunt. They pay for their own hunting.

Ethics comes from morality. Morality gets into religion. We should forget the preaching and play. Even here I am preaching.

 

[FEENIX]

We should forget the preaching and play.

lightbulbThat sounds a lot more fun, I'm game!lightbulb
No need to complicate things unnecessarily. Let it go and move on ...

[ame]https://youtu.be/moSFlvxnbgk?t=14[/ame]

 

[MMERSS]

A professional gets paid ..... We should forget the preaching and play. Even here I am preaching.

I wish I could. I have 'leashed' teenagers that want to come out and play. They want off the leash. Almost all of them have been able to consistently shoot vital sized targets at a mile or longer, many 2K+ with around four shots or less. I keep preaching accuracy but I'm constantly reminded 'everyone else is taking more than one shot or missing vitals while hunting……. why can't we'. I told them they can't hunt this way but I'm losing the argument……Teenagers are simple minded and easily influenced by their peers, they do what everyone else is doing. I was no different as a teenager. I made a promise they can't hunt this year the way some of them want and neither will I. I'm dropping 'the leash' after big game season in December and finished with my preaching. I'm disappointed with both sides of the fence….but mostly with myself. Now is not the time to take a passive approach with what is eventually going to come to light.

Many hunters have strong feelings toward a video of a father and young teenage son elk hunting. Well, what if a teenager posted a similar video but with a range much larger minus Dad? Teenagers have this ability today……I'm just hoping they haven't taken this to social media yet. Ostrich? Time to pull your head out of the sand. Replace any Facebook post, TV show, or video with a Teenager named Andy or Becky…..This may eventually take hold like wildfire once exposed to what's possible. Effective range hunting is the answer not a boast of range without mention of accuracy.

MOA Chaser, I apologize for the post. Accuracy while hunting is the true trophy (center your user name), not range. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to understand.

BTW, I was paid to shoot long range for almost a decade. Paid or not, the same principles of a professional apply. I could use some help "preaching" these principles.

 

[Rich Coyle]

I wish I could. I have 'leashed' teenagers that want to come out and play. They want off the leash. Almost all of them have been able to consistently shoot vital sized targets at a mile or longer, many 2K+ with around four shots or less. I keep preaching accuracy but I'm constantly reminded 'everyone else is taking more than one shot or missing vitals while hunting……. why can't we'. I told them they can't hunt this way but I'm losing the argument……Teenagers are simple minded and easily influenced by their peers, they do what everyone else is doing. I was no different as a teenager. I made a promise they can't hunt this year the way some of them want and neither will I. I'm dropping 'the leash' after big game season in December and finished with my preaching. I'm disappointed with both sides of the fence….but mostly with myself. Now is not the time to take a passive approach with what is eventually going to come to light.

Many hunters have strong feelings toward a video of a father and young teenage son elk hunting. Well, what if a teenager posted a similar video but with a range much larger minus Dad? Teenagers have this ability today……I'm just hoping they haven't taken this to social media yet. Ostrich? Time to pull your head out of the sand. Replace any Facebook post, TV show, or video with a Teenager named Andy or Becky…..This may eventually take hold like wildfire once exposed to what's possible. Effective range hunting is the answer not a boast of range without mention of accuracy.

MOA Chaser, I apologize for the post. Accuracy while hunting is the true trophy (center your user name), not range. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to understand.

BTW, I was paid to shoot long range for almost a decade. Paid or not, the same principles of a professional apply. I could use some help "preaching" these principles.

When I went pronghorn hunting this year I told the guide, "I'm good to 300 with no wind." I spyed one up at 458 from about 100 feet above it. I was literally laying between some rocks. If I had more time with the rifle, I could have easily made the shot. There was no wind. Maybe a slight 12 o'clock breeze. But I didn't want to pray and spray.

 

[MMERSS]

When I went pronghorn hunting this year I told the guide, "I'm good to 300 with no wind." I spyed one up at 458 from about 100 feet above it. I was literally laying between some rocks. If I had more time with the rifle, I could have easily made the shot. There was no wind. Maybe a slight 12 o'clock breeze. But I didn't want to pray and spray.

There are some good points brought up with the antelope hunt. Establishing honest and realistic confidence levels are a must with an effective range. From your example, 300 to 400 plus with practice was identified as the maximum for range with confidence to make a good shot. Is energy the focus of primary consideration with establishing an effective range or is it confidence levels to ensure accuracy? If focused morally on energy, one could find themselves following the scent of a red herring down the wrong trail distracted by what is required to ensure the bullet lands where it belongs. Accurately placed, there will be sufficient energy in the 300 yard confidence example with any reasonable cartridge and bullet selection.

Here is another example tied into the response from 406Precision.

Situation. Dad wants his son introduced to long range. His son has never shot much past 300 yards. Dad wants a turnkey rifle for both to shoot targets waaaaaay out there. Dad has the bling to buy top notch equipment.

The equipment. Turnkey 338 Lapua and Cheytac based cartridge rifle with ballistics calibration complete and programed in a ballistics computer, Kestrel weather station, top of the line rangefinder.

The training (son only, not dad). One hour maybe a little more on how to use the range finder, Kestrel, and ballistics computer. Dry fire a couple times during the training. Practice with how to change screens between the computer and Kestrel. Practice with the shooting position and platform.

The results. First two shots struck a target just over 800 yards hitting 1" and 3" from center. Next three shots were taken at 1128 yards resulting in a 1.9" group off center by 7". (Have I mentioned before how much I hate group shooting). Last shot at 2258 yards (1200 ftlbs) missed dead center by 8". Luck? Is this what the new young shooter thinks?

Then the next words I believe contained "get" and "hunting" in the sentence. In less than two hours a young man was able to shoot a 2258 yard target smiling ear to ear. Did he have any clue what it took to put this combination together? Not a one, but he was really good at entering the data while scrolling between the screens with a turnkey rifle. He even beat dad……on his own.

Realism. Using WEZ with realistic estimates for this young hunter and current environment, a maximum range using the Cheytac would be more in the tune of 700 yards (90%+ chance of hit to a 10" target). Do you think I could convince otherwise?

Does anyone believe there isn't one single teenager or parent out there that would think it WOULDN'T be "super cool" for their son or daughter to be the talk of the JR or High School for tipping over a deer or elk at a mile or greater? Dialed XXXX yards and dropped him! I've seen these kids shoot------they can do it on their own…..and some of them want to. Thankfully most don't.

Two years ago I address this issue on this forum. I was told by most to go pound sand (actually I believe everyone told me to go pound sand). Parents and kids read these forums and watch TV shows. How can I answer a father that calls and says he just saw someone knock over an antelope at XXXX yards on TV with a misplaced shot or someone with a dead elk at 2000 yards posted on this forum and asks what's the difference if his son does this? What do I tell him?

I'm a bit frustrated toady. Opening day of elk and deer and I'm home watching TV, venting, and keeping a promise to some of the teenagers….you can't long range this year and neither will I. There still needs to be more work on what is or is not realistic with hunting estimates and range.

Turkey hunters have a youth hunt and program. Waterfowl hunters have a youth hunt and program. Bow hunters have a youth hunt and program. Muzzleloaders have a youth hunt and program. Long range hunters have a ??????????????? If it's about range some of the youth hunters are ready to take down game up to and beyond 2K……on their own. If there is doubt in this, go to a school and ask the kids that hunt if any of them would think it cool to shoot a deer or elk at a mile. You will see at least one hand if not all of them come up.

What should a long range youth hunt and program look like? I've been trying to figure this one out. A good place to start is with an honest approach to confidence limits which ties directly into the ethics of establishing an effective range. Energy is a red herring to effective range in most situations.