Footpounds of Energy Limit

[Greyfox]

Geryfox,

Is that factor species dependant for you? I hunt elk with a bow and know how tough they are. I have only shot deer and antelope with rifle and feel they are less tough than elk. I ask because I have been considering barreling to a 284 win for deer sized game. I figured I would be good out to 800 if I did my part.

Yes the Taylor factor is game dependent, deer around 10, elk at 15. I am primarily a deer/antelope Hunter and use a 6.5x284. It has a factor of 9.5 at 1000 yards using the Taylor formula. I have shot several deer and antelope with this rifle between between 700 and 1000 yards, all DRT. I think your 284 would be fine at 800 yards n deer given you use a high BC bullet at 284 spec velocity.

 

[Plinker147]

I think when shooting at game at LR foot pounds is a huge considerations (This assumes you are shooting an accurate rifle). Low foot lbs work OK on a perfect shot ( heart and lungs) but what if you hit a shoulder or hip. Lets face it all shots at long range arnt perfect, sometimes you miss judge the wind.

IMO 1000FT LBs on a elk front shoulder might not do the job. It will on a coues deer.

My suggestion to all is be fair to the game use something that will still do the job when things arnt perfect. More ft Lbs the better

 

[Rich Coyle]

The 1000 ft/lb is arbitrary. Arbitrary is like ignorant prejudice, which I use at times. The arbitrary number I use is 2,200 feet per second. When my rounds fall to that velocity, it is my maximum range.

 

[FEENIX]

Outside of energy, what about accuracy? Did you have first round accuracy to achieve the 1300 ftlbs of killing power at 931 yards? If so, were you near the limit of maximum effective range or could the situation allowed for greater range? If not first round accuracy, at what range would you consider a maximum effective range based off the current conditions and shooter/weapon/ammo confidence limits?

Of course it is, that's why I agreed with your original post to begin with. All I was saying was that I also have my unwritten rule; "1000 FT-LBS and 1500 FT-LBS of energy at POI for deer and elk size game respectively" in response to the OP's subject title - "Foot pounds of Energy Limit".

I have a "self-imposed" maximum range on game at 1000 yards (under ideal conditions) regardless of energy ... at this time.

 

[406precision]

They have been taking game with arrows for awhile now.

. I'll take a practiced shooter who knows his or her limits and good bullet placement over any arbitrary number or distance period. MMERSS is right on track. Knowing your equipment and your capabilities as well as honestly admitting your limitations is paramount.

Assignment of arbitrary numbers masks the skill and practice it takes to take animals efficiently .

Jordan@406

 

[srhaggerty]

Yes the Taylor factor is game dependent, deer around 10, elk at 15. I am primarily a deer/antelope Hunter and use a 6.5x284. It has a factor of 9.5 at 1000 yards using the Taylor formula. I have shot several deer and antelope with this rifle between between 700 and 1000 yards, all DRT. I think your 284 would be fine at 800 yards n deer given you use a high BC bullet at 284 spec velocity.

Thanks Greyfox. That's about what I figured. I was planning on using the 162 A-mx with BC .625.

 

[Rogmay]

Greyfox, I'm at 2067fps at 700yrds and 1961fps at 800yrds! it gives me a 15 factor at 700yrds and a 14 @ 800yrds! but like others have said, I do feel one needs to know the accuacy of there gun and there ability to shoot it! Unfortunately many people don't. Thanks for the calc equation, it's good to know.

 

[Greyfox]

Greyfox, ......but like others have said, I do feel one needs to know the accuacy of there gun and there ability to shoot it!..... .

I agree totally. These factors are always just part of the equation. The understanding and ability to put that bullet where it needs to go is critical and a prerequisite for any discussions about killing effectiveness of the bullet.

 

[FEENIX]

They have been taking game with arrows for awhile now.

Assignment of arbitrary numbers masks the skill and practice it takes to take animals efficiently .

Jordan@406

True, but that too has been associated with arbitrary numbers (KE's) whether we like/adhere to it or not. Although I practice up to 65 yards on targets, my comfort level is inside 30 yards. It is due in part of my draw length and weight. In some states, there's a minimum draw weight (i.e. 45 lbs).

The bottom-line is, those so called arbitrary numbers are out there for end-users to use or ponder. What end-users do with it is entirely up to them. Decisions, decisions, decisions, ... choices, choices, choices, ... I think it's great we have them. gun)

lightbulbWith screen name like MOA Chaser, I think he knows a thing or two about accuracy, just like 406precision. lightbulb

 

[406precision]

My original post wasn't made to contradict anything that has been stated only to point out that although interesting and useful to an extent that assigning a value to either fps or ft-lbs can be a slippery slope.

Here is a good example if I choose to go by the 1000 ft-lbs method

My 338 lapua retains enough energy based on this to harvest game at 1750 yards

My 375 Cheytac in turn yields 1000 ft-lbs at 2250 yards

My 260 still carries 1000 ft-lbs at 800 yards

On the other hand one poster said he uses 2200 fps as an arbitrary number according to this we get the following

338 Lapua 500 yards

375 Cheytac 850 yards

260 450 yards

As you can see the formulas are all over the map .

While I certainly don't condone shooting to the distances from example one I think the distances from example two are just as misleading.

From an educational stand point I just think it is important to let folks know that the use of these numbers can lead to a variety of problems for an inexperienced shooter.

If your going to base your decisions in the field based on statistical data then you need to compile and use all of the data at your disposal ie..shooter experience and skill, weapon accuracy, fps and ft-lbs of energy, bullet selection, shot placement, environmental factors etc...as MMERSS stated probably the best tool for this tast is Litz's WEZ program.

The problem with the WEZ program is that most shooters both experienced and inexperienced are to proud to limit their shots to the distances it suggests. The other issue is that most shooters don't take the time to gather enough useful information or practice enough to establish their own Maximum Effective Range let alone someone else's!

 

[jrock]

I thinks its valuable info to design a gun around. I use the 1000 ft*lbs for deer and 1500 or more for elk at the minimum velocity that bullet manufactures recommend. Using this data, it comes out similar to the equation for what I would be comfortable with. I think equations typically are a bit conservative but its only a reference point. I like to spend lots of time talking with people about the terminal ballistics of their gun/bullet/distance combo to make a more accurate judgment.

 

[MMERSS]

Guys (and possibly Gals) the person behind this post is smart! He has thrown out a red herring, at least this is the way I read it. Using a 300 Win with Partition bullet, can anyone prove this post is indeed a herring?.....assuming realism in the proof with maximum effective range being a quick and clean kill not left to chance.

 

[engineer40]

I know many guys in my area that deer hunt with 357 Mag lever guns and at the distances they claim to have killed deer, those lever guns aren't coming close to 1000ft lbs of energy or the velocity that some others have mentioned as their rule of thumb.

And how many countless deer were taken with black powder rifles with probably even less energy and velocity using non-expanding/low BC round balls of lead? Most of those old black powder rifles were horribly inaccurate. But I bet the people shooting never felt guilty about making an unethical shot.

In my younger days, I used a smooth bore 12 gauge to deer hunt for a few years. The slugs I used were only traveling 1300fps at the muzzle! With the terrible BC of those slugs, they must have been moving at Red Rider BB gun speeds by the time they connected with the animal. All 3 deer I shot with that gun died exactly where they were standing.

Ethical kills are a slippery conversation. I have an uncle in my hunting camp who wounds a deer every freaking year. Some years he has wounded 2 and not found them. All of his shots are under 100 yards and he is using a known good rifle. It ****es me off... But who am I to tell him that he shouldn't be hunting? He loves hunting! And has raised his boys to love hunting.

My opinion; if it's a small diameter bullet, it should be traveling pretty darn fast when it connects. If it has a lot of ft lbs of energy, it doesn't need to be traveling as fast. Really big diameter holes usually trump both.

 

[MMERSS]

I know many guys in my area that deer hunt with 357 Mag lever guns and at the distances they claim to have killed deer, those lever guns aren't coming close to 1000ft lbs of energy or the velocity that some others have mentioned as their rule of thumb.

And how many countless deer were taken with black powder rifles with probably even less energy and velocity using non-expanding/low BC round balls of lead? Most of those old black powder rifles were horribly inaccurate. But I bet the people shooting never felt guilty about making an unethical shot.

In my younger days, I used a smooth bore 12 gauge to deer hunt for a few years. The slugs I used were only traveling 1300fps at the muzzle! With the terrible BC of those slugs, they must have been moving at Red Rider BB gun speeds by the time they connected with the animal. All 3 deer I shot with that gun died exactly where they were standing.

Ethical kills are a slippery conversation. I have an uncle in my hunting camp who wounds a deer every freaking year. Some years he has wounded 2 and not found them. All of his shots are under 100 yards and he is using a known good rifle. It ****es me off... But who am I to tell him that he shouldn't be hunting? He loves hunting! And has raised his boys to love hunting.

My opinion; if it's a small diameter bullet, it should be traveling pretty darn fast when it connects. If it has a lot of ft lbs of energy, it doesn't need to be traveling as fast. Really big diameter holes usually trump both.

Why is ethics a slippery conversation? All sorts of LRH members discuss how much they practice, the thousands of rounds and countless hours of shooting and improving skills. This sounds like a profession doesn't it? To be recognized as a profession in the US the profession requires a code of conduct. Isn't a code of conduct considered the same as ethics? What would most other hunter's views on long range hunting be? Would the word professional come to mind or something else? Anyway, ethics have been frowned upon to talk about here so I'll leave it rest and use numbers instead.

Can someone provide reasonable evidence this thread is a red herring using the velocity of a 300 Win and Partition bullet where 9 shots out of 10 centered on a target similar to the vitals of a big game animal leaves energy as a moot point of primary discussion with determining an effective range?