ENERGY FOR DEER ?

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Pretty sure I stated already my personal experience with a 9mm. You seem to think that you're the math expert so I'll you figure out how much energy factory Hornady 135 gr critical duty has from a 3" barrel at 20 yards. I guess since you seem stuck on having a minimum number you can use that. And please, reply to this with the equation for kinetic energy again, because we missed it the first three times. I'm pretty sure you're just a newbie that wants something to argue about, so I'm done here.
 
Palerider3
I'm new to the site but not new to being smart. You seem to know me well, or so your reply states. I am interested in facts not stories that you had or sadly are repeating. Who shoots a deer with a 3" 9mm carry gun ? Irresponsible people that's who. You posting actions like that give the anti hunting groups more and more fuel. Job well done
 
Who shoots a deer with a 3" 9mm carry gun ? Irresponsible people that's who. You posting actions like that give the anti hunting groups more and more fuel. Job well done
What would be the difference between a 150 lb deer and a 200 lbs human? Why would anyone think that a bullet that works on one would not work on the other? What exactly is it that you are trying to get out of this thread? You've been given examples of animals being killed with lesser energy. Are you arguing that one needs 1200 lbs of energy for deer? It's really not clear what your position is. I personally have no idea how much energy is needed for a "1500 lb elk"?
 
Scared to post on this thread. Go easy. I remember when me and friend started hunting deer on our own. We wonder at what distance will my round be marginal. My dad had a book on hunting big game. There was a formula in it called. The knock out formula. Bullet weight in grains x velocity x bullet diameter divided by 7,000. (7,000 grains in a pound). The farthest we had to shoot was 400 yds. We would do the math on estemated impact velocity and felt better about the attempt. I calculated a 9mm with a 124 at point blank and ran with the answer. That was our minimum. Didn't have forums to ask or the great bullets of today. We practiced a lot in the off season and Still do.
 
I'm not a fan of minimum ftlb numbers, but these seem a lot more reasonable than most that people through out. Also, well placed 9mm does fine. I killed a whitetail buck with a 135 Hornady out of an M&P Shield a couple years ago. Double lung at 20 yards. It ran 50' and fell over and left a blood trail a blind infant could follow.
That is way cool!
 
Palerider3
I'm new to the site but not new to being smart. You seem to know me well, or so your reply states. I am interested in facts not stories that you had or sadly are repeating. Who shoots a deer with a 3" 9mm carry gun ? Irresponsible people that's who. You posting actions like that give the anti hunting groups more and more fuel. Job well done
Wow you better not hunt deer with a bow then. Those arrows are moving very slow and do not even have a barrel let alone a 3inch barrel. Super unethical if you ask me. ;)

can the moderators please kill this thread. The OP just came here to start stuff and not actually ask advice.
 
Energy is not a usable number in the reality of things, simply look at a bow kill, low energy, high blood lose and quick death, very effective.
I've shot a lot of deer with 22 cals that spec out with 600-800 ft lbs of energy and it was very effective with excellent wound channels, I've hit them with over 5000 ft lbs from a big 338 and had them run just as far and be the same amount of dead.
I've shot a good number of elk with 600-800 as well with the same results so reality in the field pretty much blows a complete hole in a math based approach to lethality, it would be nice to be able to put a number to it but you simply can not.
 
Wow you better not hunt deer with a bow then. Those arrows are moving very slow and do not even have a barrel let alone a 3inch barrel. Super unethical if you ask me. ;)

can the moderators please kill this thread. The OP just came here to start stuff and not actually ask advice.
He's probably just trying to get enough posts to get access to post in the classifieds.
 
OP, what are you hoping to gain by your time on this forum?

Do a majority of the members lack some basic academic knowledge, and you enjoy enlightening others?

Are you hoping to gain some knowledge from others in order to understand LR hunting, and maybe increase your own skills?

Just trying to help the thread along....
 
In shooting guns from 22lr up to 338 norma I have no idea what energy they have at any yardages. Could care less. I know that if I use a suitable bullet with enough velocity for expansion and put that bullet where I want it there will be a dead critter
 
Kinetic energy does stop hearts.

Energy is figure by the weight of the bullet and the velocity. They are paired and always will be, this is Newtons formula for kinetic energy.

A fast bullet without weight and a big bullet without speed will not produce an adequate energy level like a good weight to velocity ratio.

I don't to hear minimum velocity comments, that is rubbish.

I already stated using a quality bullet.

My question is what is the minimum energy level for deer using quality bullets ?

About 100 trillion neutrinos pass through the human body (every one of them) per second. They do so at the speed of light or very close to that, proving that velocity does not kill. Their mass, however is nearly zero, resulting in very low energy.

For many years my rule of thumb has been 1500 ft-lbs for elk and 1000 ft-lbs for deer. I also use "quality" bullets – Barnes MRX, TTSX and LRX; Nosler AB and ABLR; Swift A-Frame, North Fork SS, HP and FP; Swift Scirocco II and a variety of FP JSP and FN bullets for my levers and handguns. Considering the Hornady SST's and Nosler BT bullets I've used and their terminal performance, 'd have to say they are "quality" bullets as well, just not my favorites for hunting. There is a great deal of difference, however, in how those bullets react on impact, with that reaction being dependent on impact velocity and what material they impact. As a result, I prefer 2200fps minimum for the Barnes and 1800 to 2000fps for the other spitzers. If I held to a minimum of 1800fps my .45-70 350g hunting laod would be limited to about 125 yards, far short of its real effective range. I killed an elk with that load at 213 lasered yards and am confident the result would have been the same at 400.

Velocity matters because it helps determine what the bullet does on impact. A mono that doesn't expand can pencil through, causing little damage. A thin-skinned cup-and-core bullet can blow up on impact, causing horrific wounds that are not fatal in the near term.

The killing mechanism for bullets is the destruction of vital function, but this can happen a number of ways. CNS hits can be fatal with low energy, trajectories that miss vital organs can still be fatal if the wound channel is sufficiently large. To ask for specific energy numbers is asking the wrong question, of at least a very incomplete question. The bullet used, point of impact, angle, impact velocity, animal type and size/weight, and whether the animal is adrenalized of relaxed all play important roles in determining how much energy is required.

This year I've prepared three rifles for the annual elk hunt: .280 Rem/140g TTSX @ 2928fps, .300WM/175g LRX @ 2988fps and .338WM/225gAB @ 2760fps. Only two will make the trip (which two is still to be decided), but I'm confident any of the three would do the job at 600 yards if I do mine.
 
We all know Dirty Harry's opinion on opinions. The Taylor KO factor, KE factor, and others are simply a guide, how it is used is entirely up to the end-user and it constantly faces condemnation as is evident in this thread. It is not the only factor (shot placement, bullet type/construction, minimum expansion velocity, size of the game, etc.) in making the optimal shot configuration for the intended purpose. If one chooses a 9MM to hunt a deer that is their choice, but it certainly is not mine. BTW, the use of KE in bowhunting vs rifle is not the same because one expires by hemorrhaging and the other by trauma (of course in addition to tissue damage and blood loss) as a result of intense shock on impact. Let us not forget that this is still a long-range hunting forum.
 
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