ENERGY FOR DEER ?

[palerider3]

Let me ask this, why do you think that there is a certain level of kinetic energy that is necessary to kill an animal? And why did 1000 become the number? Other than because it's been repeated for decades.

 

[AZhunt1121]

Waiting ballisticsguy ?

Energy kills because it has enough mass and speed to penetrate effectively.
Velocity alone does not equal penetration nor does weight alone.
They have to be paired....PERIOD !

 

[AZhunt1121]

That is my question, how much energy is needed ?
Energy is the only variable to good penetration and ethical kills.
It is not velocity alone. It is not weight alone.

 

[Bigeclipse]

The standard rule of thumb to kill an elk is 1500 lbs of energy because the average elk weighs about 1500 lbs right ?

So why then do most list the minimum energy to kill a deer at 1200 lbs ? Shouldn't the effective energy level to cleanly dispatch a deer be around 350 lbs being the largest deer falls into this weight ?

Thoughts...........

ive heard 700-1000 for Deer but that being said ive shot big bucks with a 44 mag revolver which was toward the bottom of that range and it had no issue taking down those deer. It is all about shot placement and appropriate projectile. Heck, old timers used to use 22lr back in the day or so I have heard.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Waiting ballisticsguy ?

Energy kills because it has enough mass and speed to penetrate effectively.
Velocity alone does not equal penetration nor does weight alone.
They have to be paired....PERIOD !

Disagree. Take a super heavy solid jacketed bullet and shoot it very fast and yes that deer will die but the bullet will just zip on through. The shock of the hit will definitely due damage but my point is a slower lighter weight bullet with an appropriate jacker or hollow point would likely be better. For example, a 338 lapua shooting a heavy caliber full metal jacket shot at a deer at 50 yards will certainly kill that deer, but a shotgun with an appropriate slug, or 30-30 with a hollowpoint may actually perform better. The energy on the 338 lapua would blows those out of the water.

 

[AZhunt1121]

Only a non expanding FMJ type match bullet would go thru and not expend like hunting bullet.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Only a non expanding FMJ type match bullet would go thru and not expend like hunting bullet.

agreed but even with expanding bullets...I have seen a 338 lapua shooting say a nosler accubond hit a deer at 75 yards and the entrance was 338 sized and the exit was the size of nickel and the deer ran 100 yards before expiring. I have also seen a 243 cal ballistic tip hit a deer at 75 yards with a 243 cal entrance and a 2 inch sized exit and the deer dropped right there with no broken shoulders or spine. The 338 lapua has WAAAAY more "energy" but what really killed more effectively in those situations. Again, to me it is all about bullet selection and then hitting with "appropriate" speed for that bullet for best results.

 

[cohunt]

Only a non expanding FMJ type match bullet would go thru and not expend like hunting bullet.

so what you are saying is that you want a quantified energy number that will kill a deer? you are never going to get one--bullet placement and construction come into play-- if you shoot a deer in the tail or ear with 5 Billion pounds of kinetic energy its not going to kill him, but shoot him in the heart with 50 and it will put a hole through the heart and kill him-- pistol bullets kill, rifle bullets kill, knives, clubs, arrows, rocks all kill too as long as you deliver the energy correctly

this seems like a baited troll conversation to me so I'm off to another thread, good luck

if you really believe that just kinetic energy kills then I'm sure you believe this video too..13500 ft lbs doesn't even need to hit the deer to kill it




where is MUD when you need him?

 

[TXAoudadKlr]

I killed a doe at 25 with a m&p 9 using a 90gr cutting edge raptor at 1200fps. So like 250 ft lbs.
Tissue damage does the killing. Though you need some energy to inflict the tissue damage

 

[CMP70306]

That is my question, how much energy is needed ?
Energy is the only variable to good penetration and *Rule 1 Violation*al kills.
It is not velocity alone. It is not weight alone.

The issue is that it is somewhat arbitrary as all factors need to be evaluated to get a comprehensive understanding and at that point with the available information KE becomes moot as many more factors hold greater weight in the equation.

Only a non expanding FMJ type match bullet would go thru and not expend like hunting bullet.

Or a large 405gr hard cast bullet at 1200 fps out of a 45-70 which does not expand or meet the minimum energy requirement for a 300# elk yet has killed literally millions of 1500# Bison.

 

[TXAoudadKlr]

agreed but even with expanding bullets...I have seen a 338 lapua shooting say a nosler accubond hit a deer at 75 yards and the entrance was 338 sized and the exit was the size of nickel and the deer ran 100 yards before expiring. I have also seen a 243 cal ballistic tip hit a deer at 75 yards with a 243 cal entrance and a 2 inch sized exit and the deer dropped right there with no broken shoulders or spine. The 338 lapua has WAAAAY more "energy" but what really killed more effectively in those situations. Again, to me it is all about bullet selection and then hitting with "appropriate" speed for that bullet for best results.

It's almost like the smaller animals don't have enough mass to get enough resistance for the bullet to transfer the KE. My 300AX was similar until I swapped bullets then it was able to show its power. On shots 400 and on its power was clear as that 200gr bullet was doing 2700fps by then.

There's several videos of deer hit with 50's and running 50-100 yards....an elk or something bigger, I suspect it would be more authoritative.

 

[Bigeclipse]

It's almost like the smaller animals don't have enough mass to get enough resistance for the bullet to transfer the KE. My 300AX was similar until I swapped bullets then it was able to show its power. On shots 400 and on its power was clear as that 200gr bullet was doing 2700fps by then.

There's several videos of deer hit with 50's and running 50-100 yards....an elk or something bigger, I suspect it would be more authoritative.

Agreed. The OP was interested in deer so I formed my opinion based around that size game. To me it is all about what bullet you use and the recommended speed for that bullet and then couple that with the size game you hunt.

 

[Thescandinavian]

The law here sets a limit of 2700joule (2000lbs) for bullets heavier than 10grams (154grain) and 2200joule for bullets between 9 and 10grams while bullet lighter than 9 grams(140 grain) is forbidden to use on anything larger than roedeer. Energy should be measured at 100m (100+ something in yards)
The most widely used caliber was the 6.5 Swede so I guess the numbers are picked to suit this caliber with the bullets available at that time.
Game here is way smaller than in the US for sure.

 

[Bigeclipse]

The law here sets a limit of 2700joule (2000lbs) for bullets heavier than 10grams (154grain) and 2200joule for bullets between 9 and 10grams while bullet lighter than 9 grams(140 grain) is forbidden to use on anything larger than roedeer. Energy should be measured at 100m (100+ something in yards)
The most widely used caliber was the 6.5 Swede so I guess the numbers are picked to suit this caliber with the bullets available at that time.
Game here is way smaller than in the US for sure.

hmmm that law seems a bit crazy to me. That would rule out the 243 and some of 270 ammo on deer here in the US because they typically come less than 140 grains.. Both these rifles have killed thousands of deer.