First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

[bigngreen]

Come on men. Is that the best you got ? I can't make the shot because 2" of my target is covered at 1000 yards ? I can't make a shot at 40 yards at 6x because I can't see the tics on my reticle within a 60MOA region ? Holey smokes...

I shoot a lot of game with my scope on the lowest power out till I need to crank it up which while hunting is several hundred yards, the great advantage that FFP is supposed to bring to me is that I can hold of at any power more accurately, so how's that working for me if I can't see the hold points to hold 6-8 moa of wind which is common for the 400-600 yard range. A SFP scope may have changed value which I can easily deal with but at least the dang thing is there when I need it!!!

All I know at longer ranges is a .156 MOA reticle starts to suck for me at about 800 yards for my aim point on antelope, not hard math for me to put together, can't see my aim point can't hit my aim point which is the top of the heart. Shooting at a mile I can't see a 4in aim point with my reticle but a thinner one I can, aim small miss small kinda works!!

 

[mildot1960]

John, referring to my earlier post with the 2 different images of the reticle at Min and Max magnification. Could you explain why either of those reticle views are unsuitable to use as an aiming point, because in my view that is the most basic purpose of a scope ? Is the Min magnification a problem if the animal fits in the field of view ? If it does not fit the field of view you just have to rotate the mag ring to zoom in and increasing magnification suggests it is further away and therefore additional precision is REQUIRED to get a good shot and balistic corrections are going to increasingly be applied.

By the time the range is getting long, and by that I mean 350 yards + for small critters, most of us would be at max magnification provided mirage allowed it. No-one can argue that the subtentions on the reticle are unintelligible under these conditions.

How about describing when you think it is going to be an issue ?

Well the Image's are fine for those with 20+20 vision or anything near it,
and on fast occular focus scopes they can and do run out of adjustment, and I agree with your example's

"Why are all the Critic's Non user's"

I Personally am not critisizing these FFP scope, I have explained what the Dealer/Importer has said and also what others have said and I want One Right or Wrong and But what BROS and ME/I am doing here is trying to learn from those who use them in order to understand what we are doing when we get One and is there a good enough reason to buy one or do we Buy the same scope in the SFP version

Mate, This is not a Personal attack on FFP User's because I have seen them and heard of them doing incredable things with them,

If I agree with you I'm wrong, If I call you on something I'm Wrong, and what is worse is that ALL the Great posters that have commented here are now just sitting back because they dont want to be involved in this constand argueing and That Meens WE ALL LOOSE OUT, This Place is as inspiring as Shooting it's Self and I admire those who have given there 2c,

There's Truely Some Great People Here, And I Appologize to them for my involement in this topic/Thread,

See ya, John

 

[westcliffe01]

So if you shoot at 5x with the MOAR reticle the first tic for windage is already over 8MOA. So if you need 2MOA you can divide the "space" between the center and the first tic mark with the needed precision, instead of simply increasing magnification ? This at distances of 400-600 yards ? I personally don't know too many people who would choose to shoot with a scope on Min magnification at those ranges. Nor would I be capable of the kind of interpolation you are suggesting. At 8x on my 4-16 one can recognize the tic marks just fine and for 400 yards I would be on 16x. Field of view of the NXS at 100yds on 5x is 17.5ft thus at 400 it is 70ft. You are going to shoot at an object with a vertical dimension of 14-20" with the scope set to a field of view of 70-105ft ? By choice ? And that makes FFP scopes unsuitable ?

I shoot a lot of game with my scope on the lowest power out till I need to crank it up which while hunting is several hundred yards, the great advantage that FFP is supposed to bring to me is that I can hold of at any power more accurately, so how's that working for me if I can't see the hold points to hold 6-8 moa of wind which is common for the 400-600 yard range. A SFP scope may have changed value which I can easily deal with but at least the dang thing is there when I need it!!!

All I know at longer ranges is a .156 MOA reticle starts to suck for me at about 800 yards for my aim point on antelope, not hard math for me to put together, can't see my aim point can't hit my aim point which is the top of the heart. Shooting at a mile I can't see a 4in aim point with my reticle but a thinner one I can, aim small miss small kinda works!!

 

[Broz]

So if you shoot at 5x with the MOAR reticle the first tic for windage is already over 8MOA.

No, the first aim point would be at the end of the cross. That is 1 moa on 22X and 2 moa on 11X on the NXS line of scope that commonly uses the MOAR in 5.5~22. So on 5.5 X , that is only down 5.5 moa from 11X, and it should be about 3 moa to the first aim point (end of cross) and 6 moa to the second. For a many rifles zeroed at 200 yards the 3 moa hold would be good for the 350 yard shot you used as an example earlier.

As BnG said, the main advantage that FFP users report is indeed being able to use the reticle for hold over on ANY magnification. So seeing the reticle and hash marks is very important to the average FFP user looking to make a quicker shot at distances past point blank for their rifle.

If you are not using your reticle at all for hold over as you suggest, the FFP has no value for your type of shooting you describe. You would be just as well suited with a SFP and the more visible reticle.

Jeff

 

[orkan]

As BnG said, the main advantage that FFP users report is indeed being able to use the reticle for hold over on ANY magnification.

Wind holds are the main advantage for long range shots, not hold over. Most of us dial elevation and hold wind. Hold overs would be the second thing in order of value, but a very close second. Both come in very handy when coyote hunting, where you will have your magnification dialed back to increase FOV, yet won't have time to run turrets when a coyote appears out of nowhere.

It happens quite frequently where I'll call a coyote up to 50yds from my decoy, drop him, then go after the others he was with. They will run out about 300-400yds and stop, to look back. In that situation, even with a 22-250 hot load I'll have about 1.1 mils to 400yds, and sometimes that much or more wind. I don't have time to dial magnification, or turrets in that instance. Years ago I was pretty good at getting that second one with SFP. I would use the size of the coyote as a measuring tool, since my reticle was useless due to never being on max mag when coyote calling. Missed quite a few though.

Since making the switch to FFP... that second dog finds himself in SERIOUS peril more times than not. Using my reticle, and knowing my holds are not changing with the various magnifications... it's truly precise when I hold for that second/third shot. I'm not making any assumptions about the size of the coyote, or how much linear distance I'm holding off of him. I'm finding a precise 1/10th mil intersection on the reticle that matches up with my estimate of his range, and the wind between us. This takes less time than it takes me to count to 3.

 

[PEEWEE69]

PEEWEE, Why not get a Mate to adjust them to his/her eye's and then ask them if they are the same or not???

john

think I'll try that and see what they say can't hurt to try

 

[cohunter14]

It happens quite frequently where I'll call a coyote up to 50yds from my decoy, drop him, then go after the others he was with. They will run out about 300-400yds and stop, to look back. In that situation, even with a 22-250 hot load I'll have about 1.1 mils to 400yds, and sometimes that much or more wind. I don't have time to dial magnification, or turrets in that instance.

I think this is the point that is being made...if you shoot the coyote at 50 yards, you are probably on minimum maginification. If you then want to take a shot at 400 yards and don't change the magnification, there is no help in the holdover if you cannot see the aim points.

 

[cohunter14]

By the time the range is getting long, and by that I mean 350 yards + for small critters, most of us would be at max magnification provided mirage allowed it. No-one can argue that the subtentions on the reticle are unintelligible under these conditions.

But if you are at max magnification, what does an FFP provide that an SFP wouldn't?

 

[jreagle]

where you will have your magnification dialed back to increase FOV,

Interesting thread so far.........

Orkan or anyone with FFP experience,
i have a question that has been asked before but dont believe a definite answer was posted by anyone or maybe i missed it in the 40 + pages......

Lets say looking through a premier 3-15x50 gen2 xbr mil mil no illumination..... dialed back to low power for better FOV:
are the tick marks of the reticle visible enough for holdover in normal daylight? how about same question at twilight or dusk?
if they are not, then at what power do they become visible enough to use in daylight and low light?

This is an area of concern for me with FFP. i havent been able to borrow an FFP scope to actually field test in varying conditions.

Thanks in advance
John R

 

[Broz]

Wind holds are the main advantage for long range shots, not hold over. Most of us dial elevation and hold wind. Hold overs would be the second thing in order of value, but a very close second.

Excuse me, I should have included "Hold Off's" as well as "Hold Over" But since the person I was discussing this with has stated he was talking 350 yards and rearely ever shoots past 450 I thought I was on task. They are both in reference to reticle calibration in either direction.

I think this is the point that is being made...if you shoot the coyote at 50 yards, you are probably on minimum maginification. If you then want to take a shot at 400 yards and don't change the magnification, there is no help in the holdover if you cannot see the aim points.

Yes, this is indeed what we were discussing, quick shots at not too far of a distance.

Thanks

Jeff

 

[orkan]

Lets say looking through a premier 3-15x50 gen2 xbr mil mil no illumination..... dialed back to low power for better FOV:
are the tick marks of the reticle visible enough for holdover in normal daylight? how about same question at twilight or dusk?
if they are not, then at what power do they become visible enough to use in daylight and low light?

In daylight, they are useable at 3x. You'll lose them as light diminishes, but its difficult for me to describe where. I've taken a few low-light coyotes with the light tactical... but I have no real way to answer that question other than I've not had a problem in low light. At 3x, things are pretty fine. I'm a fan of this, as it offers a very fine aim point. At 5x, they are VERY useable. The GenIIXR reticle is pretty thin. The GenII Mildot that they offer is a thicker reticle, and is much easier to use on 3x when light starts diminishing.

Out here in south dakota the shots are not very close usually... so when I'm hunting and using a 3-15 light tactical... it generally sits on 5x or 6x most of the time. Below are some through-the-scope shots I just took out my office window. The building across the street has a pretty busy mural on it, and is about 40yds away. The human eye picks the reticle up WAY better (in the extreme) than these pictures allow for, but take from them what you may.

 

[mildot1960]

Orkan, Thanks for posting those pictures, It's a nice Reticle from what I can tell, but I'm just bothered about being able around the x5 setting with my eye's not that I'm going blind but I guess the only way to know the answer is to go and try one

Thanks again, john

 

[orkan]

I guess the only way to know the answer is to go and try one

Pretty much. That's the way it is with optics.

 

[westcliffe01]

The ability to use less than max magnification while still having the reticle being dead on. For me that would be anywhere from 8x to 16x with the 4-16. My 6-24 arrives this evening so have not had time to play with it yet, but I suspect it will be similar 10-24x should have the reticle readable and in low light I have the illumination to fall back on if needed.

I am not restricted to specific calibrations at specific magnifications, which are very hard to apply in a fluid predator hunting experience. Changing magnification is a relatively easy thing to do and there is nothing precise about it. Just dial to a point you are comfortable. On the other hand, dialing up corrections on the turrets one has to be exactly right and remain aware of where you have them if they are not on zero in the first place.

I agree that if every shot that you take is on max magnification, then the extra $200 for the FFP may not be worth it for you. I typically shoot with a different magnification every time and can never tell where the coyotes are going to show up. My process starts with the scope adjusted to match my binoculars field of view. Once I see something with the binoculars, then I pick up the rifle and go from there. If I know there are livestock in the lane of fire, I will not zoom in as much as otherwise to maintain situational awareness. If I am sure it is clear I will dial up as much as practical.

But if you are at max magnification, what does an FFP provide that an SFP wouldn't?