First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

[westcliffe01]

I think that frankly Broz is in a little different class to the majority of us. If you are taking shots with a time of flight that is measured in seconds vs milliseconds than I can see that the benefits of a FFP count for naught. Provided that the reticle is not so thick that it obscures the target, those of us working our way out to longer distances and frequently engaged in shorter range fast shooting like the constant reticle subtentions. The vast majority of shooters have never used a FFP scope or even looked through one. Every time I go to the local DNR range I have requests to look through the scope.

There is no need for everyone to agree, if that were to be the case, communism would be perfect... But many people do not understand the difference between the one system and the other at all, and hopefully some light gets shed on that.

 

[orkan]

Why would you care? Or is this just another childish remark and you looking to argue more? Sorry if that sounds rude but you reap what you sew.

Jeff

I'm used to it. It's OK for you to be rude here... but not for me, so I don't bother. Take my comments however the hell you wish. Makes no difference to me.

 

[orkan]

I havn't said much on this thread, other than I prefer sfp. But man you just won't let it rest, your just too full of yourself, and since you are a sponser I will say this because of this thread, I wouldn't buy chit from you.

Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Broz]

I think that frankly Broz is in a little different class to the majority of us. If you are taking shots with a time of flight that is measured in seconds vs milliseconds than I can see that the benefits of a FFP count for naught. Provided that the reticle is not so thick that it obscures the target, those of us working our way out to longer distances and frequently engaged in shorter range fast shooting like the constant reticle subtentions.

You might be surprised at how many there are shooting regularly past 1000 these days. A few years back I was in one of Shawn Carlock's Defensive Edge advanced classes with 3 other shooters from a few different states. We all went past 1000 yards like a rabbit with his *** on fire. There were first round cold bore hits at 1500 plus yards as well as a 2nd round hit on a rock dubbed "the chicklet" at 1705 yards. It was the size of a cantalope. And these were students looking to improve their knowledge and skill sets. The longest shots were when Shawn and I send some of the first 300 gr Bergers to something like 2300 yards. So yeah, flight times in the 3 plus second area were a reality. I have watched and learned on this forum as distances have gone from a 700 yard shot being a very long poke to seeing many take game out to 1000 in a relatively short period of time.

One also needs to consider the area you hunt shoot and live. Shooting to well past 1000 for me is as easy as sliding open the patio door in our master bed room. Two of the coyotes I have taken past 1000 were done prone from the bedroom floor. I am not doing anything that anyone else could not do. I am just fortunate enough to live where it comes easy.

There are many ways to skin a cat. Pic you method, and practice it enough that it becomes second nature. If you find a flaw that is staring you in the face, be wise enough to change it and keep shooting as often as you can.

Jeff

 

[westcliffe01]

Broz, when I go to the local 100 yard DNR range, it shows otherwise, unless the real shooters simply avoid the place... Its free too and you have to go a long way to find a similar range in these parts. Public land is primarily flat and wooded. 50 yards is a long way in most of that. Anyway, about 95% of the people at the DNR range can barely keep their group on a paper plate. Some use 16x16" targets and then need all of it...

Perhaps we have a lack of mentors here in the east...

I would like to come to your shoot, but it looks like April is too soon and road conditions could be unpredictable. What are typical conditions like in June ? Whats the elevation and humidity level ?

 

[Broz]

Broz, I would like to come to your shoot, but it looks like April is too soon and road conditions could be unpredictable. What are typical conditions like in June ? Whats the elevation and humidity level ?

June would be pretty nice weather. Temps will be ranging from 60's to mid 70's and cool at night. Humidity probably in the 20% area. Altitude around 4000'asl.

Would be great if you could come out. I think this is a pretty area and I simply love it here. Let me know if you are planning a trip and if you need any local info. Probably could point you to a few places to try your luck with the trout, if you like to fish.

Jeff

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I would like to come to your shoot, but it looks like April is too soon and road conditions could be unpredictable. What are typical conditions like in June ? Whats the elevation and humidity level ?

Not to dispute Broz, but June weather can be a bit volatile. It is the wettest month of the year in this area. Since moving here to Bozeman back in 2000 we've had 12" and 14" snowfalls in the middle June and numerous other June snowfalls. That said, the weather can be real nice too. Basically roll the dice. Townsend is a bit dryer than Bozeman so that's a good thing. Don't mean to scare you off, but if Aug fits your schedule you'ld have a lot better chance of good weather although a bit warm.

I'm planning to make a couple of Broz's shoots as well and hope to see you and a few others. Bring warm clothes.... anytime in Montana. Temps can drop 30* in 30 min.

 

[mildot1960]

Since these are FFP scopes and yes, I posted the pictures directly from the Vortex website and it says right on them that they are in MOA (I am not a MIL man), it means that no matter what, the reticle will be either 0.21 or 0.18 MOA wide.

So taking the 4-16 as the worst case with the 0.21 wide reticle and knowing that 1MOA is a dimension of 10.47" at 1000 yards then multiplying 0.21*10.47" yields 2.20" at 1000 yards. So, please explain to me what you are trying to shoot at 1000 yards, that is smaller than 2.20" ? Especially considering that a 2mph wind drift is a full 1.4MOA POI shift or 14.6" ?

I can understand that in benchrest shooting, where most other factors have been eliminated and one has the means to make tiny, repeatable corrections to the point of aim, that seeing the target clearly is important. But this is not a benchrest forum. Here people hunt in "field conditions" using what they carried to a high point and that sure isn't a bench rest...

WestCliffe, I posted the figures quoted to me by the Dealer/Retailer because people were quoting figures in Mrad as they were quoted to me, So when I saw you post referring to my speculation I did the Math to convert it for you in order to help you understand that the two workout to be the same, And Like you I work mainly In MOA

But after Talking to Broz and Orkan and many more WORTHY People, I can see that there Right,

John

 

[mildot1960]

I would have to add, that I am pretty sure my eye is not going to resolve a 2" object in my 16x scope at 1000 yards. Perhaps someone younger and better endowed in the vision dept, but not me. Which is why I got the 6-24 on order since I think I have a better chance resolving something at 1000 yards with that scope. Even a coyote is more than 0.5MOA at 1000 yards and with the 6-24 scope the reticle should neatly divide it in 3.

I'll be sure to post here when I do actually shoot my first coyote at 1000 yards. end Quote,

Well I truely Hope that you do manage to succeed your goal,

Now the reason why it is so criticle to have A reticle that Is finer than the crosshairs at 100yds than the ammo that you are using is so you can maintain on a constant basis of ALWAYS shooting the true Sub MOA's that your/our Rifle's can shoot BECAUSE the Human Factor is the only weak link in the chain,

In order to Achive a 4" group at a 1000yds its no good not being able to see1.5 inche's of it when 3/4s of it is hiding behind the crosshairs,
Now The reason Bros and Orkan and Quite a few others here are so **** good at shooting is because they factor in all these issue's And it is important to be able to see the shots through your scope because A person could always double the size of the grouping just because of the size of the reticle,

Premier, Night Force and Vortex all have listend to shooters from around the World and Addressed this issue.

MYSELF I use to use 5.5 yd/5 mtr AirPistol Targets @ 100yds, and when you can get the bullets in the same hole or your next shot is Only half a bullet width out then its time to move the target back to 200yds and start all over again,

And if you really want you make it hard for your self do it with a .22 but if not use a .223 or bigger that will make you sweat buckets,

If you try this then no Critter's will be safe up to and beyond 1500yds

Good Luck with it,

John

 

[PEEWEE69]

Did you ever call Vortex and if did, what did they say?

talk to vortex and the only answer they had was that if my redicale focus adjustment wasn't exactly the same on both scopes that that would have some influence on magnification Im not sure that's it but the the target still seems smaller to me and how would you know your retical focus adjustment is exactly the same

 

[mildot1960]

talk to vortex and the only answer they had was that if my redicale focus adjustment wasn't exactly the same on both scopes that that would have some influence on magnification Im not sure that's it but the the target still seems smaller to me and how would you know your retical focus adjustment is exactly the same

PEEWEE, Why not get a Mate to adjust them to his/her eye's and then ask them if they are the same or not???

john

 

[westcliffe01]

John, what is funny about all this talk about the reticle obscuring a magnified target is that people shoot with iron sights and no magnification whatsoever and achieve grouping close to what many others can only do with a scope. I don't fall into this category, since I couldn't even see my target at 100 yards (it has a 1" aiming point).

David Tubb manages to shoot 1/2 MOA with iron sights at 1000 yards, I wonder if he complains about how wide his front sight blade is ? One imagines that changing a mask used for etching the reticle should be a relatively minor issue for a scope manufacturer, so if they are not doing it, they apparently are not getting enough requests to make it worth their while. Or perhaps they get more complaints that the reticle is too thin by people shooting 300-500 yards....

Don't get too wound up about the comments. Why relay hearsay when you can directly post the image of the reticle ? That leaves no room for doubt, don't you think ?

 

[mildot1960]

WestCliffe, I use to shoot with open sights also and It does take some doing,
But the subject Reticle's came up and It is one of those things that often dictate's which scope we buy,

I always use to use the 3030 type but then the power thing became an issue, So I worked on the fact that PM AI rifle's use to use a maximum of 12 power so for a while I resticted my self to Only Military Issue Items,

But I am not involved with that anymore and scope's have moved on and the reason why Reticles are an important issue is because in the Sale's pitch that is one of the things that they Put in the list of features in order to separate us from out hard earned Dollars, And quite a few people here are upgrading to these new scopes all because the one's that they bought in the first place were not up to standard in the first place, and you only have to buy 4 or 5 of these things and thats $10,000 and thats alot either way you carve it,

John

 

[westcliffe01]

I'm on 2 FFP scopes for $1700 invested - the Viper PST 4-16x50 on my Savage 12 243 AI and the 6-24x50 which is slated to go on my Remage (Remington 700 with a match 8x57 barrel secured with a barrel nut...). I was planning on both of these being switch barrel rifles. The 700 is a long action and the Savage 12 is a short action. But to make that a reality I need one of the receiver wrenches for each which slide into the bolt bore so the barrel can be removed without disturbing the scope base or scope.

In addition I have a Nikon 3-12x42 Monarch and a 4-16x50 Monarch. Then a bunch of Weaver 6x fixed scopes for my muzzle loader and Savage 24 combo gun. The Weavers have a rather short eye relief and the scope itself is short too so sometimes mounting them can be a challenge...