Fired Brass Can't be Re-Sized

[243winxb]

Patent for the chamber design. https://patents.justia.com/patent/8938903
Jun 27, 2012

The website has info on the chamber.

XTRAXN™ is a proprietary chamber feature added to reduce frictional forces caused by pressure-expanded cartridge cases bearing against chamber walls. Facilitates reliable extraction through a wide range of temperature / chamber pressure extremes. XTRAXN™ extends extractor life, while having no effect on the firearm's accuracy. All this, and it dovetails well with the OBR's world-famous accuracy.

The company should have a warning , if fired brass is not going to be reloadable.

 

[woolecox]

And if you go in guns blazing like these two above, you'll throw away your first opportunity to get a satisfactory outcome. Lay out your case. Ask them for a resolution. If they don't play nice, then you move it up to the next notch. If they are accredited by multiple organizations, like BBB, NSSF, etc, you can push there.
Don't fold your cards and start shooting up the works. That's a loser move.

Agree. Today I will send in a request for a return and refund using their online contact form (phone contact is near impossible). I will plainly state the issues and how those issues were not disclosed.

I will request a full refund on my order. I really don't want to go into a lengthy back and forth with the manufacture trying to fix the rifle.

I had trouble shipping a rifle to an FFL a few weeks ago from a FedEx hub in Conroe, TX. The employees flatly told me that "It was illegal for me to ship a rifle because I am not an FFL"

Of course this is false. UPS did ship the rifle after I took it to management level at the hub. Things are starting to get difficult.

 

[Uncle yib]

I can probably write the company's response;

"We did not build this rifle for reloaders. We built it for war fighters so it would function with any ammo under any conditions. And, that is exactly what it does."

Hope I'm wrong.

The LR308 or A.R. 10 is not a Mill spec Rifle each manufacture is going to have a little bit of difference in their specs so that will probably be their answer to you

 

[woolecox]

Patent for the chamber design. https://patents.justia.com/patent/8938903
Jun 27, 2012

The website has info on the chamber.

The company should have a warning , if fired brass is not going to be reloadable.

Yes, saw that. Apparently all that mumbo jumbo means an extremely oversized fluted chamber.

 

[Ol' Red]

I agree with the chamber casting solution. That will answer all the questions...if it is to spec, then the builder/manufacturer is out of the equation, for the most part. If it is out of spec (oversized) then the seller should be held accountable. Give them a chance to make it right at their expense, if they don't, then there are other avenues to encourage them to do the right thing. Have a cast made by a gunsmith, this removes the doubt that "you didn't do it correctly". Not that it is faulty, but take one step at a time, and it will be resolved.rsbhunter

This is a good idea, but only after the firearm manufacturer has had a chance to correct the problem first. Talk to them and ship it back. If they refuse to correct the problem, then resort to chamber cast.

 

[Steve gavette]

And if you go in guns blazing like these two above, you'll throw away your first opportunity to get a satisfactory outcome. Lay out your case. Ask them for a resolution. If they don't play nice, then you move it up to the next notch. If they are accredited by multiple organizations, like BBB, NSSF, etc, you can push there.
Don't fold your cards and start shooting up the works. That's a loser move.

I simply told him he should be enititled to the vendor making good on the rifle, and a refund or repair are the only 2 ways I know to do that. Not sure how that qualifies as "guns blazing". They already started down the road of BS. I would attempt an agreement to just cancel the purchase, but that is me. Asking that they make good on defective equipment is hardly "guns blazing".

 

[Dr. Richard Gray]

I just got a factory new AR10 chambered in 7.62 NATO (308Win). My first 7.62 auto loader. I am a reloader. I have been doing it for 30 years now. I have been an active Bench Rest, PRS, and IDPA competitor and, reload for all those disciplines. I also reload all my hunting ammo. So, I am pretty sure I know what I am doing and am confident my equipment is up to and exceeds par.

Using a box of new Lapua 308 Win brass I had on hand, I loaded up several "ladders" that consisted of 168SMK, 175SMK, 175VLD-H, and 178ELD-X. All respectable bullets. All were loaded using various weights of Varget power, and GM210M primers. All top shelf components. None of the loads were anywhere near max. In most, at least two full grains short. No over pressure signs.

I also shot a couple of factory loads, Hornady Black 168AMAX, and Federal Gold Medal Match. All reloads and factory ammo functioned flawlessly except the factory Fed GMM. It was not powerful enough to strip the next round from the magazine and closed on an empty chamber. "CLICK". The GMM did function flawlessly with the gun suppressed but the groups were terrible. All other groups were near or under 1 MOA for 5 shots. The best was the 178ELD-X that grouped .62" and clocked 2500 fps. It's a 20" barrel.

To the point: All cases except for the Hornady case will not go through my resizing dies. Even with the Hornady I really had to stand on the lever to get them sized. When I measured the fired cases, all dimensions were around a full .01" larger than factory new. A full hundredth. No way they are going through a die. Yes, I used multiple dies; Redding FL, Redding Type S, Redding Shoulder Bump, Forster FL, and Forster Bushing Bump. Not happening.

So the question: Can this be anything other than an extremely loose chamber?

I am going to contact the factory as soon as possible but, that may be impossible with most companies being flat on their butt "due to COVID".

Here is one of the better groups. The factory Hornady AMAX did just as well.
View attachment 205436

Are you using a .308 die? Like you I have been reloading for over 45 years, not a competition shooter. Using a conversion calculator a .308 = 7.8232mm. You will encounter the same problems with the 5.56 like I have. Reloads jam like crazy. Although the difference in a 5.56 using a 223 die, .223 in = 5.6642 mm. You take those differences and it is understandable why you will have problems. I contacted RCBS (which is what I use) about these differences and if enough reloaders will do the same, perhaps they may consider production of actual dies for these calibers. This is basically attempting to fire a .45 round in a .44 mag using the same cylinder, it's not going to happen.

 

[Dr. Richard Gray]

Man, I've used lake city brass that I'm sure was fired in a Machine gun, I know they have "sloppy" chambers. I used imperial sizing wax and it works. It's hard, but it goes, I usually do it in thirds, push it in a third , pull it out, then in, out, then all the way in. I've tried sizing with the spray lubes including 1shot and that IS pretty much impossible ! So my question is, what LUBE are you using?


And to answer your BOLD question. In my opinion, yes I think it's a loose"er" chamber.

I use STP. Works great, although you have to run your brass through a parts cleaner afterwards.

 

[ntsqd]

I'm voting with my wallet. I've not been too impressed with that mfg and now I'm even less so. I see arrogant solutions from them to problems no one else seems to have. Up to them to see if they can salvage this.

 

[Dr. Richard Gray]

I will check it out. Is it easy to clean off?

Try either STP or LUCAS oil stabilizers. You can clean the cassing afterwards with any cleaning solvent used in a mechanic shop.

 

[cohunt]

here is a small except from LaRue's website:

"All returned merchandise must be accompanied by a completed Return/Exchange Form. Returns will not be accepted on merchandise that has been altered, laundered, modified in any way or mounted and/or fired. All returned items must be in original unaltered packaging and include literature, tool kits and accessories. Return date eligibility is 15 days on vendor merchandise and 30 days on LaRue manufactured parts. If an item is purchased as a combo then all items must be returned from combo, no splitting of items allowed. Customer will be responsible for all freight and shipping charges on items returned that are not the result of Seller's error and LaRue Tactical is not responsible for lost shipments on items being returned. "

I think you are fighting an uphill battle and I suggest to try to sell it to recoup your loss and be done with it---most ffl sales are final unless there is a manufacturing defect-- If you want to pursue an avenue I would pursue the issue of it not functioning with the "quality match ammo" (thew FGMM you tried) -- you already told them (I think) that you altered/modified the rifle (by changing the muzzle device) and that you have fired it-- you agreed to their terms of sale that plainly say that if you modify or fire the firearm it is non-returnable.

I am not saying that I agree with their policy in any way, but it is pretty plain and I think you have a long road up hill dragging rocks to try to get them to give you your money back. No rifle manufacture states that you can resize brass after it is fired from their rifle, and LaRue never stated that fired cases could be resized-- we all assume that would be the case but you know what assumptions get us. I do see several " like new" rifles selling on the net for about $1000 less than new, this may be why.

I am disappointed in LaRue for not handling this in a different way, and it's up to you how to proceed-- but I have been down a long road similar to this before and all I go was a lot of stress and wasted time

I'm sure people will flame this post and say "the customer is always right" but in the end it would not be worth the wasted time and stress if I could just sell the thing and get on with my life--we live, we learn.

here are some related web threads to consider:

FL Sizing Brass Fired From 7.62 OBR w/XTRAXN - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

La Rue OBR 7.62 18"

looking for some advise for this AR-10 noob. Got my order in with La Rue tactical for an 18" 7.2 OBR, looking at a 14+/- week lead time, i'm stoked! question is now that this tool will need feeding, where is a good place to get some everyday plinking ammo for good prices. cheaper than dirt has...

www.snipershide.com

Cases fired out of a LaRue OBR sizing really hard - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

seems to be the fluted oversize xtran chamber that can cause the issue

 

[asd9055]

Are you using a .308 die? Like you I have been reloading for over 45 years, not a competition shooter. Using a conversion calculator a .308 = 7.8232mm. You will encounter the same problems with the 5.56 like I have. Reloads jam like crazy. Although the difference in a 5.56 using a 223 die, .223 in = 5.6642 mm. You take those differences and it is understandable why you will have problems. I contacted RCBS (which is what I use) about these differences and if enough reloaders will do the same, perhaps they may consider production of actual dies for these calibers. This is basically attempting to fire a .45 round in a .44 mag using the same cylinder, it's not going to happen.

First the problem is with cases, no bullets. Second, you are taking numbers too literal. &62 and 556 are NATO designation. Finally, why does it work in my M70 308 and my DPMS?

 

[Steve gavette]

here is a small except from LaRue's website:

"All returned merchandise must be accompanied by a completed Return/Exchange Form. Returns will not be accepted on merchandise that has been altered, laundered, modified in any way or mounted and/or fired. All returned items must be in original unaltered packaging and include literature, tool kits and accessories. Return date eligibility is 15 days on vendor merchandise and 30 days on LaRue manufactured parts. If an item is purchased as a combo then all items must be returned from combo, no splitting of items allowed. Customer will be responsible for all freight and shipping charges on items returned that are not the result of Seller's error and LaRue Tactical is not responsible for lost shipments on items being returned. "

I think you are fighting an uphill battle and I suggest to try to sell it to recoup your loss and be done with it---most ffl sales are final unless there is a manufacturing defect-- If you want to pursue an avenue I would pursue the issue of it not functioning with the "quality match ammo" (thew FGMM you tried) -- you already told them (I think) that you altered/modified the rifle (by changing the muzzle device) and that you have fired it-- you agreed to their terms of sale that plainly say that if you modify or fire the firearm it is non-returnable.

I am not saying that I agree with their policy in any way, but it is pretty plain and I think you have a long road up hill dragging rocks to try to get them to give you your money back. No rifle manufacture states that you can resize brass after it is fired from their rifle, and LaRue never stated that fired cases could be resized-- we all assume that would be the case but you know what assumptions get us. I do see several " like new" rifles selling on the net for about $1000 less than new, this may be why.

I am disappointed in LaRue for not handling this in a different way, and it's up to you how to proceed-- but I have been down a long road similar to this before and all I go was a lot of stress and wasted time

I'm sure people will flame this post and say "the customer is always right" but in the end it would not be worth the wasted time and stress if I could just sell the thing and get on with my life--we live, we learn.

here are some related web threads to consider:

FL Sizing Brass Fired From 7.62 OBR w/XTRAXN - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

La Rue OBR 7.62 18"

looking for some advise for this AR-10 noob. Got my order in with La Rue tactical for an 18" 7.2 OBR, looking at a 14+/- week lead time, i'm stoked! question is now that this tool will need feeding, where is a good place to get some everyday plinking ammo for good prices. cheaper than dirt has...

www.snipershide.com

Cases fired out of a LaRue OBR sizing really hard - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

seems to be the fluted oversize xtran chamber that can cause the issue

I am sure those restriction on returns are if you simply want to return the item, not in cases of defect.

 

[ntsqd]

True, but they wouldn't be the first to hide behind terms like that to enforce a sale.

Which I happen to think is finacial suicide in today's more and more connected world. This thread will show up in a diligent search on that mfg or that peculiar chamber.