1X Fired Brass THEN full-length sized??

[MagnumManiac]

Now a follow-up question:

I am sighted in with new brass....will the following rounds that have now been full-length sized have a different point of impact?

It will probably be a tad faster in once fired brass changing POI.
I ran into an issue about 12 months ago where a load I had worked up in the same brand brass, all of a sudden in a new batch shot fine on NEW brass, but had ejector marks and loose primer pockets when fired in the once fired brass.

I discovered when trying to partially full-length resize all you do is manage to push your shoulder forward. You have to get all the way to full-length resize before the shoulder's pushed back and you can actually fit them into the chamber.

Well yes, and no.
The reason the cases grow is because when you squeeze the body, the brass moves forward well before the shoulder is touched.
You get far more control over your brass if you are slightly camming-over on your press, but it is NOT FL sizing just because you are cramming over.
I have a short chambered 375 Weatherby, a doctored shell holder is required to get the desired bump and the die is in hard cam-over with this .010" trimmed shell holder, yet I am still only bumping .002"-.003".

Cheers.

 

[theosmithjr]

If I full-length size the 1X fired brass from my rifle, am I essentially negating the benefits of 1X fired brass and returning it back into SAAMI brass?

 

[theosmithjr]

Hell Yes! Why do you think Re-Loads in FIREFORMED brass are superior in accuracy? Because you've removed 1 Variable, the Fireformed brass matches Your Rifles Chamber. Once you FL Size it, your starting at Square 1 again. Neck size your 1x brass, just bump the shoulder & reload it. You'll SEE the Differance.
Theosmithjr

 

[Rich Coyle]

I have neck sized my hunting brass for more than 45 years. I test chamber all loaded rounds before taking them hunting to ensure a smooth load and close. You would be surprised how often I have seen full length resized loads fail to chamber for guys I am guiding or hunting with because they weren't tested first. I have NEVER had a round fail to chamber properly. On top of that I have 300 WM, 7 Rem Mag, 375 Ruger, 308 and 7x57 brass that has more than 15 reloads on them and still look perfect. After 5 loadings, combined target and hunting shots, I use them for target only and start with new brass for the hunting loads.

If there is a down side to neck sizing I have never seen it, and only rarely do I need to bump a shoulder, or trim brass. I have over the years, and with each new gun, tried FL versus neck only and neck sized brass has always shot better groups, particularly in belted magnums.

Not saying all should do this, but at least try it both ways and see for yourself which works better for you. Way too much stuff gets repeated on the internet that hasn't been personally verified. Only way to know for absolute certain is to try it in your own gun.

I too have discovered neck sizing produces more accurate loads. Therefore I too used them for hunting for years. And like you I ran everyone through the magazine and action prior to taking them on the hunt.

With my 6.5 Coyle I have only full length sized because I didn't have a neck sizer. Now I do, so I will try both ways as time allows and the Lord wills.

 

[BountyHunter]

Lot of misconceptions here.

I have seen virgin brass set records at 1k BR matches. So it can shoot extremely well.

There is no benefit to fireforming if you die does not match and you NS only until your brass grows each time until it clicks, fails to chamber or extract. That is guaranteed to happen. You want brass that is "uniform and reliable" each time, period.

IF you change lots of brass, even same mftr it is routine for different capacities. Buy enough brass out of one lot to last. When you have to buy more expect you might have to retune your load.

Too many do not understand that dies fit anywhere in the SAAMI standards which have a left and right limit per say. THERE IS NOT JUST ONE DIMENSION. That die may meet SAAMI specs but NOT work with your chamber. You can have a min SAAMI chamber reamer make a min SAAMI chamber and a max SAAMI die that just will not size your brass to make it fit right. No matter who made the dies, they just will not work. Now virgin brass can fit anywhere in between also.

The key is to find the die that matches your chamber!!!! Period, it does not get any simpler or more complex than that. NS or partial FL size is not going to fix that. They only lead to issues down the road. They will bite you eventually.

You want some but minimal sqeeze on the body especially at the bottom about .200 to .250 above the extractor groove, bump the shoulders .002 every time. Your brass is then uniform every load and will fit in the chamber and extract easily every time. That is what you want. Any of that NS or partical resize BS and you have a crap shoot if it will load or extract without hanging up at the wrong time.

There is a reason 99.9% of the competitive (SR, LR, PRS etc) shooters use matching dies to their chamber and FL size every time. They get the exact same specs on the brass each and every time and it is 100% reliable. They use a .002-.003 neck clearance too now and bump the shoulder normally about .002. We found absolutely no need to go any tighter and it effects reliability if we do.

Jim Carstenson at JLC precision takes a redding body die and hones it to fit your chamber and converts it to FL bushing die for abut $80, Harrell brothers will make custom dies, Whidden can make them too along with others. All require fired cases so determine the die specs to get the sizing you need and not more.

Cam over does not mean diddley if the die does not match your chamber. You might bump the shoulder too much and might not touch the base enough. IF you use factory dies you might have to try several dies. PTG chamber reamers will normally work with Redding dies very well as PTG makes the Redding die reamers and spec their stock reamers for Redding die match up. Believe it or not you often would be better going to a small base die to get a uniform sizing every time vs not enough.

You need to learn to measure your fired brass, at the shoulder and at about .200-.250 above the extractor groove with a blade mike (NOT a cheap caliper, high end calipers will work if you know how) after firing and after sizing to see what your die is actually doing. A good set of Redding comp shellholders work wonders too.

Take a moment to look at Alex Wheelers video"Does you die fit your chamber?" https://www.wheeleraccuracy.com/videos

He explains it and visually shows you what and how to look for in sizing and dies.

This should be bookmarked on your computer as his info is top notch in all the areas and shows you how to set up shoulder push back and othe key elements.

 

[MagnumManiac]

I will quote a famous shooter "a case should fit a chamber like a rat turd in a violin case"

All I've got to say really.

Cheers.

 

[Buck Buster]

If you bump the shoulder .002 then it is unlikely to be set back to its 'as new' size. You will find different opinions on this...some neck size only until it is necessary to bump the shoulder, while some FL size every time and set the shoulder back a small amount.

I agree !!! This subject is as bad as politics !!

 

[LDHunter]

I'm not a competitive shooter and never intend to be one but I can't see any difference between accuracy in my FL sized loads and my neck sized only loads but I DO see a huge difference in case life and the amount of time necessary to FL size and clean brass vs just using a Lee Collet die to neck size. The time saved is enormous and in my more accurate rifles tiny groups seem to be the norm with either.

I also have hunted with neck sized only brass for many many years and have never even once had a failure to chamber or fire. Those often repeated internet wisdoms are as often true as they are pure rubbish. We chased deer with hounds in the swamps of north Florida for many many years in incredibly dirty and tough conditions day in and day out with almost no time to properly clean a rifle and quite simply I never had even one problem with neck sized only brass.

I think that full length sizing for anyone but a true competitive shooter is simply a waste of time despite what the keyboard experts tell us but then that's only my opinion backed up by 50 years of handloading and shooting experience and might be totally different in other people's world.

When I encounter "often repeated knowledge" on the internet I'm prone to test that knowledge in my rifles and most of it is purely hogwash or it may only apply in certain limited situations.

I think it's safe to say that many different systems work quite well when handloading and there are many armchair experts and truly knowledgeable people that swear that their way is the best and only way to do it and the arguments will continue ad nauseam.

 

[Mike 338]

I'm in the FL sizing camp but I set the die up for about 1.5-2 thousands setback.

 

[gohring3006]

I wouldn't set my die up with 1x brass. 2x fired is better, I wait till the third firing. I collet size until that point, then I set my die up with piece of brass that's hardest to chamber for the .002"(ish) setback, Keep them annealed, don't push it hard and you will have long brass life. It's worth the extra firing or two just to make sure they are fully formed.

 

[J E Custom]

If I full-length size the 1X fired brass from my rifle, am I essentially negating the benefits of 1X fired brass and returning it back into SAAMI brass?

You will get many different opinions on this and will have to decide which way you want to go.

Dies are rarely the exact same as the reamer/chamber (Close but not perfect) so 1x firing best matches the brass to YOUR chamber. I recommend the minimum sizing to maintain this fit. In my opinion, this is a case of less is more.

Try a fired case in your chamber to check the fit. IF it chambers smoothly and with no effort, it only needs to be neck sized if it takes a little effort, do a minimum neck and body sizing until you get the feel you want. when you get what you want, Lock down your dies and
it will be repeatable and should maintain best fit to your chamber and better case life.

If you are shooting a semi auto you will need to full size each time to get trouble free feeding.

J E CUSTOM

 

[LDHunter]

JE put it better than I could. He's waaaay smarter than the average bear too...

I never went the anneal route though. I always just discarded brass at about 8 firings or when it became, in any way, hard to chamber or visual inspection revealed any kind of flaws. With magnum cases I rarely fire more than 5 times before discarding.

An interesting note... I had a Bushmaster upper with a target 24" barrel in 223 a few years ago and it was so accurate I got called a liar fairly often and had to drag it out and prove that I could put 10 shots inside an inch at 100 yards. One of my secrets to get that kind of accuracy was... Drum Roll..... I used the Lee Collet die (neck size ONLY) for brass prep after tumbling in walnut media.

I would never recommend using brass prepped that way in a semi-auto defense or hunting rifle but I never had any problems with it and I fired around a thousand rounds that way from it. I threw the brass out after 8 firings.

Conventional wisdom be damned... Full steam ahead... LOL

 

[Rich Coyle]

Lot of misconceptions here.

I have seen virgin brass set records at 1k BR matches. So it can shoot extremely well.

There is no benefit to fireforming if you die does not match and you NS only until your brass grows each time until it clicks, fails to chamber or extract. That is guaranteed to happen. You want brass that is "uniform and reliable" each time, period.

IF you change lots of brass, even same mftr it is routine for different capacities. Buy enough brass out of one lot to last. When you have to buy more expect you might have to retune your load.

Too many do not understand that dies fit anywhere in the SAAMI standards which have a left and right limit per say. THERE IS NOT JUST ONE DIMENSION. That die may meet SAAMI specs but NOT work with your chamber. You can have a min SAAMI chamber reamer make a min SAAMI chamber and a max SAAMI die that just will not size your brass to make it fit right. No matter who made the dies, they just will not work. Now virgin brass can fit anywhere in between also.

The key is to find the die that matches your chamber!!!! Period, it does not get any simpler or more complex than that. NS or partial FL size is not going to fix that. They only lead to issues down the road. They will bite you eventually.

You want some but minimal sqeeze on the body especially at the bottom about .200 to .250 above the extractor groove, bump the shoulders .002 every time. Your brass is then uniform every load and will fit in the chamber and extract easily every time. That is what you want. Any of that NS or partical resize BS and you have a crap shoot if it will load or extract without hanging up at the wrong time.

There is a reason 99.9% of the competitive (SR, LR, PRS etc) shooters use matching dies to their chamber and FL size every time. They get the exact same specs on the brass each and every time and it is 100% reliable. They use a .002-.003 neck clearance too now and bump the shoulder normally about .002. We found absolutely no need to go any tighter and it effects reliability if we do.

Jim Carstenson at JLC precision takes a redding body die and hones it to fit your chamber and converts it to FL bushing die for abut $80, Harrell brothers will make custom dies, Whidden can make them too along with others. All require fired cases so determine the die specs to get the sizing you need and not more.

Cam over does not mean diddley if the die does not match your chamber. You might bump the shoulder too much and might not touch the base enough. IF you use factory dies you might have to try several dies. PTG chamber reamers will normally work with Redding dies very well as PTG makes the Redding die reamers and spec their stock reamers for Redding die match up. Believe it or not you often would be better going to a small base die to get a uniform sizing every time vs not enough.

You need to learn to measure your fired brass, at the shoulder and at about .200-.250 above the extractor groove with a blade mike (NOT a cheap caliper, high end calipers will work if you know how) after firing and after sizing to see what your die is actually doing. A good set of Redding comp shellholders work wonders too.

Take a moment to look at Alex Wheelers video"Does you die fit your chamber?" https://www.wheeleraccuracy.com/videos

He explains it and visually shows you what and how to look for in sizing and dies.

This should be bookmarked on your computer as his info is top notch in all the areas and shows you how to set up shoulder push back and othe key elements.

This reminds me of a particular religion that teaches if you don't belong to our church you are wrong!

 

[J E Custom]

As mentioned early, the chamber and load pressure determines sizing practices. certain rifles need full length sizing (For many reason) and other chamber/loads don't require anything but neck sizing. I will never TELL anyone how to size their brass because I don't know the quality of their chamber or the pressure of their load. That's why I recommend sizing only enough to function properly and achieve the best accuracy.

We are sometimes our own worst enemy and because someone says to do something,We do it. Some of my rifles require totally different sizing's and I set up for optimum performance in all areas for that rifle and don't subscribe to any one method. I do what the rifle tells me it likes the best. If a rifle needs a special set up for the dies, I first find out what i need to do to make the changes needed. Often, I use feeler gauges under the case head and once I have the needed dimension to determine the amount of sizing, I machine that much off the shell holder and test it, If all is well, that shell holder becomes a permanent accessory to that die set for that rifle and is marked so.

Other chambers will allow standard setting practices for dies and shell holders so locking down the die will normally give you what is needed. all of this information should be written down in your rifle loading data book.

Lastly, the type of duty the rifle in used should control the amount of sizing needed.

It would be nice if one method worked for all chambers, loads and uses, but in my experiences it has not proved out that way.

JUST MY OPINION

J E CUSTOM