Fired Brass Can't be Re-Sized

[woolecox]

here is a small except from LaRue's website:

"All returned merchandise must be accompanied by a completed Return/Exchange Form. Returns will not be accepted on merchandise that has been altered, laundered, modified in any way or mounted and/or fired. All returned items must be in original unaltered packaging and include literature, tool kits and accessories. Return date eligibility is 15 days on vendor merchandise and 30 days on LaRue manufactured parts. If an item is purchased as a combo then all items must be returned from combo, no splitting of items allowed. Customer will be responsible for all freight and shipping charges on items returned that are not the result of Seller's error and LaRue Tactical is not responsible for lost shipments on items being returned. "

I think you are fighting an uphill battle and I suggest to try to sell it to recoup your loss and be done with it---most ffl sales are final unless there is a manufacturing defect-- If you want to pursue an avenue I would pursue the issue of it not functioning with the "quality match ammo" (thew FGMM you tried) -- you already told them (I think) that you altered/modified the rifle (by changing the muzzle device) and that you have fired it-- you agreed to their terms of sale that plainly say that if you modify or fire the firearm it is non-returnable.

I am not saying that I agree with their policy in any way, but it is pretty plain and I think you have a long road up hill dragging rocks to try to get them to give you your money back. No rifle manufacture states that you can resize brass after it is fired from their rifle, and LaRue never stated that fired cases could be resized-- we all assume that would be the case but you know what assumptions get us. I do see several " like new" rifles selling on the net for about $1000 less than new, this may be why.

I am disappointed in LaRue for not handling this in a different way, and it's up to you how to proceed-- but I have been down a long road similar to this before and all I go was a lot of stress and wasted time

I'm sure people will flame this post and say "the customer is always right" but in the end it would not be worth the wasted time and stress if I could just sell the thing and get on with my life--we live, we learn.

here are some related web threads to consider:

FL Sizing Brass Fired From 7.62 OBR w/XTRAXN - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

La Rue OBR 7.62 18"

looking for some advise for this AR-10 noob. Got my order in with La Rue tactical for an 18" 7.2 OBR, looking at a 14+/- week lead time, i'm stoked! question is now that this tool will need feeding, where is a good place to get some everyday plinking ammo for good prices. cheaper than dirt has...

www.snipershide.com

Cases fired out of a LaRue OBR sizing really hard - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

seems to be the fluted oversize xtran chamber that can cause the issue

Well that is a grim outlook but I will give it a try. I have known Larue to be obstinate if not down right belligerent on customers with legitimate problems. We will see how this one goes.

Worst case, I keep it. It shoots pretty good. Just ruins brass.

 

[woolecox]

I have made several purchases from Larue and have held a high opinion of the company. They market their products as highest quality and charge accordingly. Very disappointed in their response. No way I could live with that. They sound like: "We found it difficult to make a quality chamber but realized a silver lining was we could patant reamer chatter". I appreciate your efforts to share a difficult process relating to an entity with some reputation. I like your reasoning and agree with your perspective.

Thanks, I am very disappointed myself. After all, I have had a Larue OBR 5.56 with 20" barrel now for over 10 years. It shoots lights out, reloads are a non issue, and it has never malfunctioned with any ammo. I used to be a big fan.

I just canceled two orders I had with them. I don't want any more Easter Eggs when I open the box.

 

[lyle2231]

So, after an hour and 10 minutes on hold this morning I gave up. I waited it out this afternoon (1:25) and finally got in touch with Customer Support at Larue Tactical. Here is a picture of my OBR 7.62 with 20" barrel. I changed the stock to the Magpul PRS and changed the A2 flash hider to a AAC MK13 to accommodate my AAC MK13-SD suppressor. The scope is a Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42 F1 with Mil-C reticule. Pretty much my dream rifle.
View attachment 205822
I explained my problem with the blown out brass and how the chamber was so far out of spec that I could not resize the brass for reloading. The XTRAXN chamber also leaves flute marks on the brass that you can see and feel. I asked if the chamber was intentionally this loose or if I had a manufacturing defect?

"Yes, the chamber could very well be that loose for functioning enhancement. We don't recommend reloaded ammo for these rifles. We have heard owners say the same thing you are about difficulty resizing the cases".

I described the ammo that I shot through it and asked if that voided the warranty. I knew it did not after scouring their website and reading the owners manual that came with the rifle. The manual says; We recommend high quality match grade ammo. Do not use steel cased ammo. No mention of reloads. No mention of special 7.62 ammo verses 308 Win.

"No hand loads do not void the warranty. We just don't recommend it".

I asked what ammo he recommended?

"Specifically, we recommend Federal Premium Gold Medal Match with 168 SMK and 175 SMK's. We have also gotten Federal American Eagle ammo to function very well in the rife".

Obviously, none of this ammo is specifically built for the 7.62 NATO Service Rifle. This is premium ammo built for the 308 Winchester. I also explained to him that the Fed GMM was the ONLY ammo that would not function in the rifle.

"Well that is probably because the rifle is new and just has not broken in yet. You should probably run it wetter and give it a few more rounds".

I call BS on this. At this point, I had about 150 rounds through the rifle and I run them wet anyway. The BGC was still wet when I cleaned it that night. I talked more about SAAMI spec and Mil Spec parts, expectations, etc.

"Well, there really is no Mil Spec for the AR10 platform. Many of our parts differ from the parts on other manufacturers' guns. As for SAAMI, chambers are often made that are outside SAAMI specs for reliability and functionality".

I explained about being able to reload 7.62 brass fired from machine guns (I have 2000 cases that are sized, trimmed, primed, and ready to go).

No explanation.

I am having another issue with the rifle I have not discussed here and It has to do with the Muzzle Brake/Adapter. When ordering the rifle, I had a choice of an A2 flash hider or the Larue Tranquillo Brake/Adapter. Well, I don't have a Traquillo Suppressor and don't plan on getting one so, I got the A2. I do however, have two other 30 cal cans that are excellent. The one I planned on using on this rifle is the AAC MK13-SD. I have used this suppressor with the MK13 muzzle device on two my bolt rifles. It is a staple with our military and it changes point of impact and group size very little.

When installing the MK13 muzzle device on the OBR, it bottomed out with a gap of about 3/8" between the shoulder of the barrel and the threads. This would take about 5 normal 7.62 shim packs to torque the device to top dead center and fill the gap. I did find a company that made thicker shims and ended up using two of those. This could be the reason I got such horrible groups with the rifle suppressed. I guess I am lucky I did't get a baffle strike. When I asked the rep about this issue:

"The Larue Tranquillo Adapter is proprietary for the rifle. It would have seated properly against the barrel shoulder".

So, AAC, KAC, Surefire, Q and other well know maker's muzzle devices will not fit this rifle?

"Correct. That would be like buying a Ford truck and putting a Chevy engine in it".

Are you kidding me? At this point, I said "Thanks for your time. Have a nice day". Had I known about the extremely loose "XTRAXN" chamber that ruins brass or, the muzzle device issue, I would not have bought the rifle. I feel like these are things that should have been disclosed.

So, now what do I do???

FWIW-Call Sierra and give them bullet weight. Ask for load recipes from low to high. Load 3 each at each step. That should ID weather you're over gassing the action. If you find a load the gun likes then go 3 tenths to either side of the bench mark. If it were me I'd obtain a pound of 4895 for this test, 4895 works in a Garand(gas gun) so it's the go to powder. Also ask Sierra what OAL they recommend. Tell'em the problems you're experiencing
These guys are a wealth of knowledge. Best of luck my friend!

 

[Smok-N-gun]

Neither bigger die, custom die, nor smaller die, will undo all the bad things about cases expanding so much.

There's little doubt you have an out of spec. chamber. It's also true you can have die's made to accommodate your out of spec. chamber but why? This will likely only cause someone else down the line some consternation just like it is doing to you right now. My advice is to box the rifle up and return it before your warranty runs out. Also, judging from what you've said it sounds like not even SAMMI would back up the seller if he or she tried to give you some grief about trying to reload your brass fired in that rifle. Out of spec items need to go back to the supplier, simple as that, especially if it's new and still under warranty. My guess is that if you simply return your rifle with a note and a couple of cases the supplier will fix it and return it or simply replace it without subjecting you to an undeserved long wait. In your accompanying note you might suggest the supplier give you a call so you'll know what to expect. Mostly gun people and gun manufacturers along with their suppliers are very accommodating when it comes to correcting problems with their sold items that have an obvious defect not caused by the customer. We all run into a snag now and then but that's just part of life I guess. Good luck although I doubt you'll need it if you just return your rifle for repair or replace or even money back if the supplier can't make it right with you post haste.

 

[lyle2231]

There's little doubt you have an out of spec. chamber. It's also true you can have die's made to accommodate your out of spec. chamber but why? This will likely only cause someone else down the line some consternation just like it is doing to you right now. My advice is to box the rifle up and return it before your warranty runs out. Also, judging from what you've said it sounds like not even SAMMI would back up the seller if he or she tried to give you some grief about trying to reload your brass fired in that rifle. Out of spec items need to go back to the supplier, simple as that, especially if it's new and still under warranty. My guess is that if you simply return your rifle with a note and a couple of cases the supplier will fix it and return it or simply replace it without subjecting you to an undeserved long wait. In your accompanying note you might suggest the supplier give you a call so you'll know what to expect. Mostly gun people and gun manufacturers along with their suppliers are very accommodating when it comes to correcting problems with their sold items that have an obvious defect not caused by the customer. We all run into a snag now and then but that's just part of life I guess. Good luck although I doubt you'll need it if you just return your rifle for repair or replace or even money back if the supplier can't make it right with you post haste.

And/or Ask them to rebarrel the upper with a standard reamer,

 

[wolffo]

unfortunately , I think from Larue's perspective, you have a functioning firearm

 

[cohunt]

There's little doubt you have an out of spec. chamber. It's also true you can have die's made to accommodate your out of spec. chamber but why? This will likely only cause someone else down the line some consternation just like it is doing to you right now. My advice is to box the rifle up and return it before your warranty runs out. Also, judging from what you've said it sounds like not even SAMMI would back up the seller if he or she tried to give you some grief about trying to reload your brass fired in that rifle. Out of spec items need to go back to the supplier, simple as that, especially if it's new and still under warranty. My guess is that if you simply return your rifle with a note and a couple of cases the supplier will fix it and return it or simply replace it without subjecting you to an undeserved long wait. In your accompanying note you might suggest the supplier give you a call so you'll know what to expect. Mostly gun people and gun manufacturers along with their suppliers are very accommodating when it comes to correcting problems with their sold items that have an obvious defect not caused by the customer. We all run into a snag now and then but that's just part of life I guess. Good luck although I doubt you'll need it if you just return your rifle for repair or replace or even money back if the supplier can't make it right with you post haste.

never ship a firearm without an Return authorization or confirmation--and if you read the past posts of this thread, the chamber most likely is not out of spec, its just a proprietary chamber

This is unfortunate for the OP, and I am disappointed that LaRue does not make it more clear that this is not a 308w nor is it a 7.62x51 and may need custom dies for reloading --- many companies now have "proprietary" parts (including but not limited to barrels, barrel nuts, handguards, bolts, carriers, extractors, barrel extensions, etc) most of these companies do not divulge that they are not compatible with other ar-10 or lr308 style components--but we need to do our homework to realize that the "large frame" AR's do not really have a "spec" like milspec ar-15 parts

I would bet that LaRue will make sure that it functions with the FGGM ammo (most likely if they accept it as a return to inspect it they will just enlarge the gas port 1 drill bit size so it functions properly)-- but I doubt they will refund the OP's $-- just my guess though.

LaRue does explain that the chamber is a proprietary design, but in the manual it does cay "caliber : 7.62x51" -- but once again it doe not say the chamber is 7.62x51, it just says the "caliber" is--- so it's a bit misleading
also what is interesting to me is that this proprietary chamber design was "invented" to help with extraction problems that arose from non U.S. manufactured ammunition including steel cased ammo-- yet LaRue specifically states to not use steel case ammo with this rifle

"proprietary" is in some ways related to "politicians" -- just remember the phrase "read the words coming out of my mouth"

if anyone wants to see the owners manual to see if they can find a "loophole" to help the OP with a reson for a refund, here is the link : https://static.larue.com/media/downloads/OBR_Manual.pdf

 

[DCAN]

I have never chambered a new barrel, and have never looked into the how to part of the operation. At the risk of sounding really ignorant, how would an oversize chamber happen without it being caught prior to assembly? Prior to shipping one would hope.....
This all is starting to sound strangely familiar. About a year ago I purchased once fired military brass in 300WM. When I tried to run it through a FL sizing die it could not be done. The die shaved off a brass ring starting about half way down the case. After a few attempts I gave up. Guessed the military 300WM chambers were cut to different specs for some unknown reason.

 

[woolecox]

Just sent in the form requesting a return and full refund. But, as many of you have pointed out, they may tell me to pack sand. It's worth a try. I'm not happy with it. If they shoot me down, I'll live with it.

I did get most of the brass to size through my Forster Bushing Bump neck die. However, it is useless. I tried to insert one of those fired and resized cases into the chamber. Big mistake. It closed but I had to fight like hell to get it out. I won't do that again.

Here are some specs (measured at the base above the rim) on the fired brass vs factory new ammo brass. I used a Starret micrometer and confirmed with Mitutoyo calipers.

Lapua once fired in OBR	.4745"	Federal Once firedFactory 175 SMK	.4730
Above brass resized Forster Bushing Bump Die	.4716"	Hornaday once fired Black 168 AMAX	.4689"
Once fired Mil Surplus Lake City (unknown weapon)	.4713"	Lapua once fired and reloaded from my bolt gun	.4697"
New unfired factory ammo Fed GM 175 SMK	.4675"	New unfired factory ammo Hornady Black 168 AMAX	.4663"

None of the brass that I was able to resize would fit smoothly back into the OBR XTRAXN chamber and certainly not my bolt gun. I now have 160 pieces of once fired premium brass that is going in the trash can.

In the picture below, you can see the groves that the fluted chamber leaves on the brass. I am sure this is part of the problem. You can also feel these groves before resizing. I would really be afraid to reshoot these cases.

Here is the issue with the muzzle device. I found a company that does offer thicker shims. They are designed to use only one shim to time a brake/adapter. I had to use two on this barrel since the threads were cut proprietary to the Larue Tanquillo brake. Another surprise. This could explain why the groups shot suppressed were so abysmal.

 

[Dean2]

I have never chambered a new barrel, and have never looked into the how to part of the operation. At the risk of sounding really ignorant, how would an oversize chamber happen without it being caught prior to assembly? Prior to shipping one would hope.....
This all is starting to sound strangely familiar. About a year ago I purchased once fired military brass in 300WM. When I tried to run it through a FL sizing die it could not be done. The die shaved off a brass ring starting about half way down the case. After a few attempts I gave up. Guessed the military 300WM chambers were cut to different specs for some unknown reason.

Maybe try treading the whole thread. LaRue intentionally chambers them way oversize and calls them a "Proprietary" chamber. They should not be allowed to do that and still call them a 7.62 gun. Either it is chambered to that cartridge's specifications or you have a modified chamber, just like an Ackley cartridge, but it is not a standard 7.62 nor is it a 308 Winchester. I would have thought there would be labeling requirements of some sort if you are going to chamber rifles in non-standard ways but I don't know U.S. regulations well enough to say that for certain..

 

[cohunt]

DCAN chamber is a 7.62 XTRAXN --I am giving up

What is interesting to me, is on LaRue's web page---it never says what ammo can be fired from this rifle-- all it says is "7.62mm" --now that would be a .308 caliber/bore dimension, but what cartridge? what if it was some odd wild cat? (basically it is)-- what if it couldn't even fire 308w or 7.62x51 ammo? They never say anywhere what kind of ammo it takes , what if the ammo was proprietary? --- in the actual owners manual it does say " caliber: 7.62x51 NATO" but actually never says anything about 308w anywhere that I can see-- sounds like their intent was to be convoluted and slightly deceptive fro the start?

you'll note that in the description for their PredatOBR rifle, it specifically states that the rifle is chambered in 7.62x51 and says nothing of the proprietary XTRAXN chamber like their other "7.62" rifles do-- you will note though that they do say that in all 3 of their 7.62 rifles they have eliminated the conventional AR barrel nut and the handguard bolts directly to the receiver -- this would note another proprietary design and most likely a standard ar-10 or lr308 barrel would not fit

 

[Smok-N-gun]

FWIW-Call Sierra and give them bullet weight. Ask for load recipes from low to high. Load 3 each at each step. That should ID weather you're over gassing the action. If you find a load the gun likes then go 3 tenths to either side of the bench mark. If it were me I'd obtain a pound of 4895 for this test, 4895 works in a Garand(gas gun) so it's the go to powder. Also ask Sierra what OAL they recommend. Tell'em the problems you're experiencing
These guys are a wealth of knowledge. Best of luck my friend!

Send it back and ask for a replacement rifle or or one that doesn't blow your brass out and destroying it for reloading. There's always the option of asking for your money back as a dissatisfied customer. The response you got over the phone really surprises me. Where did you get your rifle so I can be sure not to order anything from there? [email protected] If you still have a warranty, use it. You're rifle shouldn't be destroying brass nor should any rifle be doing that no matter the excuses you're getting. Damaged brass is a serious hit to your finances especially if you shoot very much. Not honoring a warranty in most states is just cause for the insurance commissioner and or Better Business Bureau to follow up on by contacting the supplier. This shouldn't be happening to you or anyone for that matter, Just box it up and send it back with a note explaining the problem and how the problem costing you serious money above and beyond the factory ammo you buy to shoot it. In your note tell the supplier that the fat chamber isn't acceptable and you want your money back or the rifle put into a condition that it doesn't destroy your brass, Sometimes the phone isn't the best way to resolve a problem. Send it back and put the problem in the suppliers hands to deal with. When the supplier realizes you have a justifiable problem and you're not going away he may decide to get real and take care of you one way or another.

 

[cohunt]

Just sent in the form requesting a return and full refund. But, as many of you have pointed out, they may tell me to pack sand. It's worth a try. I'm not happy with it. If they shoot me down, I'll live with it.

I did get most of the brass to size through my Forster Bushing Bump neck die. However, it is useless. I tried to insert one of those fired and resized cases into the chamber. Big mistake. It closed but I had to fight like hell to get it out. I won't do that again.

View attachment 205900

Here are some specs (measured at the base above the rim) on the fired brass vs factory new ammo brass. I used a Starret micrometer and confirmed with Mitutoyo calipers.

Lapua once fired in OBR	.4745"	Federal Once firedFactory 175 SMK	.4730
Above brass resized Forster Bushing Bump Die	.4716"	Hornaday once fired Black 168 AMAX	.4689"
Once fired Mil Surplus Lake City (unknown weapon)	.4713"	Lapua once fired and reloaded from my bolt gun	.4697"
New unfired factory ammo Fed GM 175 SMK	.4675"	New unfired factory ammo Hornady Black 168 AMAX	.4663"

View attachment 205902

None of the brass that I was able to resize would fit smoothly back into the OBR XTRAXN chamber and certainly not my bolt gun. I now have 160 pieces of once fired premium brass that is going in the trash can.

In the picture below, you can see the groves that the fluted chamber leaves on the brass. I am sure this is part of the problem. You can also feel these groves before resizing. I would really be afraid to reshoot these cases.

View attachment 205905

according to the SAAMI 308w print, the only "out of spec" brass would be the lapua-- the saami print does show .4714" + .002" so up to .4734" would be within specs-- but we have all learned that LaRue is not chambering these rifles to SAAMI spec so that is a moot point

is the barrel or receiver marked with a specific cartridge? or do they just say "7.62mm" ?

 

[26Reload]

If all else fails.....they can rebarrel a rifle with a sleeve...can a chamber be rechambered with a sleeve....