Does energy = lethality?

[VLD Pilot]

You have to look at Velocity too. At 800 the CM velocity is 1750 fps. The 308 is only 1456 fps. the 308 bullet probably doesn't have the velocity to initiate expansion of the bullet. So the CM would get the nod at 800 yards.

IMO neither would make a great 800 yard elk cartridge. I would try to stay with 1500 Ft. lb. and 1800 velocity as the minimum for elk.

Also, would probably be a good idea to run the numbers with a lighter bullet for the 308. A 200 gr. bullet may be eating up too much case capacity for good velocity. Maybe a 180 or 175 would work better.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is traveling faster than a 338 Win Mag at 300 yards also. Maybe I picked the wrong gun for a moose hunt.

 

[lancetkenyon]

Mass x velocity=energy.
You also need to think about bullet construction, ballistic coefficient, sectional density, and most of all, shot placement.

 

[JASmith]

Thanks everybody for all of the information and opinions. I got an answer to my original question of what is important for lethality.

Apologies for not commenting sooner! I just saw the thread and it addresses one of my favorite topics!

Short answer to the OP "Does Energy = Lethality?" A big NO!

That applies to medium and large game.

The primary lethality influence in lethality is hitting the desired impact point on the animal. Muzzle velocity, ballistic coefficient and shooter skills are the key parameters in getting the hit.

Next most important is expansion and penetration. One should ask "Will the bullet likely penetrate deeply enough to get into the vital regions? Second, will it expand enough to cause rapid loss of blood pressure in the brain so the animal drops quickly?" The most important factor in hunting bullets impacting within their design velocity is bullet weight.

For example, A 100 gr classic lead core expanding bullet or a 60 grain lead free hunting bullet should work well for southern whitetail weighing 125 lb. On the other hand, should one be after 500 -700 lb elk, classic bullets weighing between 160 and 200 gr or lead free hunting bullets weighing 100 and 125 grains should give a good balance between recoil and terminal performance.

These issues are discussed in detail here: http://shootersnotes.com/ideal-bullet-weight/

 

[misterc01]

Another two cents: At 800 yards either is capable of killing a target when punching holes in paper, since neither bullet had gone subsonic. Energy is irrelevant. As for shooting Elk - IMHO you need to do some research on long range hunting. 300 to "maybe" 400 yards is the longest range recommended for hunting. Long range: from a bench or mat, plenty of time to get the crosshairs on target, manipulate turrets if needed, nice breath and trigger control etc. Hunting: excited, rapid heartbeat and breathing, no time to set position other than what you are in, maybe a tree for steadying, lousy breath control no time to play with turrets, etc. On the other hand, with the rifle sighted at say 200 yards, you can practice using hold-overs to go out further to the 300-400 yard mark, and get off that quick, ACCURATE KILLING shot.

 

[FIGJAM]

Mass x velocity=energy.
You also need to think about bullet construction, ballistic coefficient, sectional density, and most of all, shot placement.

That is the momentum formula isnt it? Energy is mass x velocity x velocity (squared)

 

[FIGJAM]

As for shooting Elk - IMHO you need to do some research on long range hunting. 300 to "maybe" 400 yards is the longest range recommended for hunting.

I know this is your opinion, but it isn't a true statement. Especially on a long range hunting forum.

 

[Joshuaham]

When all things close to equal the higher sectional density bullet will penetrate better.

 

[Hadderhunter]

Energy = 1/2 of mass x velocity squared... that's why the .308 and 6.5 creedmore are at about the same energy levels even though the 6.5 is faster at that distance. The .308 has more mass.... There is a lot of math and science to LR shooting and hunting. My personal suggestion if you want to get into LR hunting vs "shooting" is to not "upgrade later" but get the right stuff now. If you want to go shoot steel at 1,000 yards or prairie dogs, etc. The set up you mentioned is fine. If you really want to "hunt" elk and deer and ethically kill things at 800-1000 yards, you need the right gun, optics, range finder, kestrel, etc. There is not magic pill for an off the shelf rifle and a box of ammo to cover every condition or situation. I am by no means an expert, but the last 10 years has taught me a lot. I am not trying to be a jerk, but conversations like this make me nervous. I would not shoot an elk with anything packing less than 1,000 lb ft of energy... that's my opinion, based on my experiences and my real life lessons learned. In other words, your 6.5 or .308 should not be considered a overall LR solution for all game... I would personally recommend considering a 7 rem mag for what you are talking about. Still not a magic pill, but meets the requirement of what you want to do on the upper end better... understand, its overbite for coyotes, but I'd rather overkill a coyote than under kill an elk.

 

[Waknstak]

I thought about the .300 win mag, but since I'm just starting out and the most recoil I've felt is a .30-06, the .300 winmag kinda worries me. I don't want to develop a flinch due to excessive recoil, and would like some cheaper ammo.

Put a brake on it..... Or a can

 

[HTJ]

Hey everybody,

I've recently decided to finally take the plunge into long range shooting / hunting. After probably 10+ years of wanting to, I finally am in a position in my life where I am able to. I've done lots of reading, and watched many videos, and I am thinking my first rifle should be the Savage 12FV (I want to start with low cost, but have the ability to upgrade later). My only question, which is one I have seen asked many times, is 6.5 Creedmoor or .308 Win?

Since this comparison has been discussed ad nauseam, I am not asking for a comparison between the 2. I understand the pros and cons of each. However, I ran into a question that I am unable to answer myself so I am hoping the great users of this forum might be able to provide some insight.

I ran a comparison of what I think would be good hand-loaded bullets for each caliber over on shooterscalculator.com. The comparison can be found at http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=9aa7d293 .

My proposed use for the rifle would be elk hunting (if I am offered this new job I have interviewed for), or whitetail hunting (if I don't get an offer). I would probably do some coyote / wild pig hunting as well. Ideally, once I am capable, I would like this rifle to be used out to 800 yards.

When looking at the data in the previous link, it shows that at 800 yards the 6.5 Creedmoor has 972 ft. lbf. of energy left. The .308 Win on the other hand has 942 ft. lbf. Since these numbers are comparable, should I assume that both bullets at this range have the same stopping force? Or is there something else that I am missing? (Note that both bullets used in the comparison are Hornady ELD-X).

Thanks!

Look at the one that has the higher sectional density. That one will have the better penetration.

 

[HTJ]

Energy = 1/2 of mass x velocity squared... that's why the .308 and 6.5 creedmore are at about the same energy levels even though the 6.5 is faster at that distance. The .308 has more mass.... There is a lot of math and science to LR shooting and hunting. My personal suggestion if you want to get into LR hunting vs "shooting" is to not "upgrade later" but get the right stuff now. If you want to go shoot steel at 1,000 yards or prairie dogs, etc. The set up you mentioned is fine. If you really want to "hunt" elk and deer and ethically kill things at 800-1000 yards, you need the right gun, optics, range finder, kestrel, etc. There is not magic pill for an off the shelf rifle and a box of ammo to cover every condition or situation. I am by no means an expert, but the last 10 years has taught me a lot. I am not trying to be a jerk, but conversations like this make me nervous. I would not shoot an elk with anything packing less than 1,000 lb ft of energy... that's my opinion, based on my experiences and my real life lessons learned. In other words, your 6.5 or .308 should not be considered a overall LR solution for all game... I would personally recommend considering a 7 rem mag for what you are talking about. Still not a magic pill, but meets the requirement of what you want to do on the upper end better... understand, its overbite for coyotes, but I'd rather overkill a coyote than under kill an elk.

Totally agreed

 

[FIGJAM]

Energy = 1/2 of mass x velocity squared... that's why the .308 and 6.5 creedmore are at about the same energy levels even though the 6.5 is faster at that distance. The .308 has more mass.... There is a lot of math and science to LR shooting and hunting. My personal suggestion if you want to get into LR hunting vs "shooting" is to not "upgrade later" but get the right stuff now. If you want to go shoot steel at 1,000 yards or prairie dogs, etc. The set up you mentioned is fine. If you really want to "hunt" elk and deer and ethically kill things at 800-1000 yards, you need the right gun, optics, range finder, kestrel, etc. There is not magic pill for an off the shelf rifle and a box of ammo to cover every condition or situation. I am by no means an expert, but the last 10 years has taught me a lot. I am not trying to be a jerk, but conversations like this make me nervous. I would not shoot an elk with anything packing less than 1,000 lb ft of energy... that's my opinion, based on my experiences and my real life lessons learned. In other words, your 6.5 or .308 should not be considered a overall LR solution for all game... I would personally recommend considering a 7 rem mag for what you are talking about. Still not a magic pill, but meets the requirement of what you want to do on the upper end better... understand, its overbite for coyotes, but I'd rather overkill a coyote than under kill an elk.

The creedmoor with 147gr eldms will retain 1000 ftlbs out to about 1000 yards depending on your elevation.

 

[tmmcampbell]

Fig l let this go over night to see if it still ****ed me off this morning. Obviously it does. I have killed 31 elk. Seen well over a 100 killed. I've lived in elk county longer than you've been alive. So while I might not live in your state maybe you are the out of stater who shouldn't be listened too.

The only thing you said that makes any sense is no one should shoot a gun they can't handle. The rest of your drivel is total BS.

1. No one, except for you, (bulletproof was your word) ever said elk are bulletproof. They can be killed with a .22
2. Maybe your saying elk are not big tough animals?? If that is your position please state it so the world can see your brilliance.
3. Your experience and my experience on how well other people shoot magnums is not the same. Maybe the out of staters here are tougher than your part of the world? Or maybe we just get out and use our rifles more. Or maybe you need to hunt with someone who cares enough to be proficient with their firearms.
4. Your statement that shooting an elk in the guts with a 6.5 Creedmoor is the same as shooting one with a magnum is like saying it is the same getting ran over by a motorcycle or a simi truck. While your mouth is moving it makes no sense.
I've seen elk shot in the guts. While this is never a good thing, large bullets moving fast do more damage than small bullets moving slower. It is a thing called physics. You might want to look that up.

OP If you want to talk about experience go read what Jeff Brozovich says on the subject. He manages a large ranch and is involved in about 80 elk kills a year. His opinion mirrors mine. His direct quote when asked if the 6.5 prc is a good elk cartridge was you can chop a tree down with a claw hammer, but there are better tools for the job.

Fig you are doing OP a disservice by trying to convince the world that elk are not tough and chit don't happen while hunting. Maybe you should stick it!

 

[Barrelnut]

The 6.5 Creedmoor is traveling faster than a 338 Win Mag at 300 yards also. Maybe I picked the wrong gun for a moose hunt.

Maybe you did.