FIGJAM
Well-Known Member
I don't shoot a creed, but at my elevation the 147 eldm retains enough energy and velocity that I would shoot an elk at 800 yards with it and not think twice.
Does energy = lethality?
- Thread starter necktweaker
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I don't shoot a creed, but at my elevation the 147 eldm retains enough energy and velocity that I would shoot an elk at 800 yards with it and not think twice.
necktweaker
Member
It would start with a .300 and end with a magnum.
I thought about the .300 win mag, but since I'm just starting out and the most recoil I've felt is a .30-06, the .300 winmag kinda worries me. I don't want to develop a flinch due to excessive recoil, and would like some cheaper ammo.
FIGJAM
Well-Known Member
The creed will be fine on elk out to 600, 700 yards easy if you shoot something like the 147gr eldm. Lots of people on here will try and make you believe you need some sort of magnum to kill them and they are bullet proof - thats all BS. I grew up in elk country - hunt and kill them every year. A 6.5 creed will be fine. I have a bunch of magnums to choose from and this year I will be taking out my 260 rem for elk. My son shoots a creed - we have killed a bunch at 600 yards with 115gr bergers in a 25-06. Your creed will be fine.
FIGJAM
Well-Known Member
Don't do it - get a creed or a 6.5 prc and be done with it. If you really want to get crazy get a 280AI. Tell those 300 wm guys to stick it.
I have seen more elk lost or gutshot by guys shooting the 300 or 338 mags. They are over rated - most people can't shoot them well without a brake and even with a brake they flinch at the noise from the brake...like I said, over rated.
retegret
Member
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- Dec 9, 2017
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I was originally thinking .308 since the ammo is cheap and this will be my first foray into long range. Then I started looking at 6.5 Creedmoor due to less deflection from wind and the lower recoil.
If 6.5 Creedmoor or .308 aren't sufficient for long range elk, then I just won't hunt elk at long ranges. I really just wanted a good entry cartridge to learn with.
The lower recoil would mainly be nice so that my kids could shoot it when they are a little older.
I guess I have more research to do
Good questions, but this made me think of people when they buy their first canoe. They want one that will do everything; canoe camping, whitewater, play boating, touring, birdwatching, fishing, loading up the kids for some fun. Yes, you can get one that will do it all, but it will not be the best choice for any ONE of those activities. It will be a compromise.
More specifically, you may need to narrow your requirements and/or look at more than one gun. I've only shot at one elk, and the stars didn't align for perfect bullet placement (as they do less often than we would admit to), but I came away from that experience thinking that a 30-06 at 400 yards wasn't enough gun for an elk. I'm preparing with some bigger calibers for the next time I draw an elk tag.
Good luck with your desires and glad you are starting shooting and hunting. Hunting and shooting are wonderful activities that you and your kids will enjoy.
FIGJAM
Well-Known Member
I hear people say that all the time, I have never understood it - any advantage you think your big magnum has is all psychological when it comes to elk. You realize a gutshot elk with a 300 or 338 mag is no different than a gutshot elk with a 6.5 right? Most people would be better off bringing their whitetail "tinker toy" guns elk hunting. This is a huge problem on this forum - out of state hunters who claim you have to have a big magnum to kill elk. Its just BS bro. I have some big magnums too - 300 rum, 300 weatherby, 325 wsm etc. they don't kill them any deader than my 260 or 25-06. Its just a reality.
You are doing the OP a huge diservice trying to make him think he needs a big magnum, especially where it sounds like he would be uncomfortable with the recoil.
FIGJAM
Well-Known Member
This could get really awesome if you are claiming the 30-06 isn't a 400 yard elk gun! Lol...
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I would agree that you do not want to jump into more gun than your able to shoot reliably, I see it every elk season where a guy buys that elk gun and by the time it's sighted in he'll never be able to shoot it well with significant changes to both the shooter and the gun.
I have a heavier, throated 308 that I shoot 215 Berger's in, that without a brake my daughter was shooting when she was 10, it's a dream to shoot and an absolute wrecking ball on big deer and elk.
The Creedmore occupies a lot of the same territory as the 308, I'm a big believer in the most bullet you can roll out with a lower expansion threshold.
The range you can effectively take an elk clean with either is mostly on the shooter, the nice thing about both is you can spend a lot of time on the gun without things getting weird so your learning. Practice where you hunt and it'll tell you quick the conditions you can handle at what ranged.
Be prepared to pass up shots, I hunt as hard for the shot as I do what I'm shooting, I've had elk all up in my death zone and not one gave me the shot I'm committed to taking to ensure 100% clean kills so I just back out and let them be and see if I can get a better angle of attack, not shooting is always an option!!
I have a heavier, throated 308 that I shoot 215 Berger's in, that without a brake my daughter was shooting when she was 10, it's a dream to shoot and an absolute wrecking ball on big deer and elk.
The Creedmore occupies a lot of the same territory as the 308, I'm a big believer in the most bullet you can roll out with a lower expansion threshold.
The range you can effectively take an elk clean with either is mostly on the shooter, the nice thing about both is you can spend a lot of time on the gun without things getting weird so your learning. Practice where you hunt and it'll tell you quick the conditions you can handle at what ranged.
Be prepared to pass up shots, I hunt as hard for the shot as I do what I'm shooting, I've had elk all up in my death zone and not one gave me the shot I'm committed to taking to ensure 100% clean kills so I just back out and let them be and see if I can get a better angle of attack, not shooting is always an option!!
whirlwindjml
Well-Known Member
I helped pack out a small bull that was hit @400 yards 4 times. 1 was in the boiler room barely. He had to finished off. Those were 150 corlok 300 win mag. (I am not related to that guy)
Since then myself and my kids have killed 6 elk. Several fat cows included all one shot kills with 6.5 creedmoor. 515 yards we got 2 of them. There was no problem.
Practice and placement are key. I take my kids shooting as often as I can and my 14 year old sacked his (with creedmoor) @ 300 yards with the rifle resting over my shoulder. He would have never done that with magnum because he would have been hiding from it.
The terminal ballistics of the 6.5 creed are just fine out to 600 (more?idontknow). Europeans Been killing moose for a long time with 6.5... use what your ACCURATE with. And what your kids will enjoy practicing with. If they lose there fillings shooting it, it ain't gunna work.
2 cents worth.
Since then myself and my kids have killed 6 elk. Several fat cows included all one shot kills with 6.5 creedmoor. 515 yards we got 2 of them. There was no problem.
Practice and placement are key. I take my kids shooting as often as I can and my 14 year old sacked his (with creedmoor) @ 300 yards with the rifle resting over my shoulder. He would have never done that with magnum because he would have been hiding from it.
The terminal ballistics of the 6.5 creed are just fine out to 600 (more?idontknow). Europeans Been killing moose for a long time with 6.5... use what your ACCURATE with. And what your kids will enjoy practicing with. If they lose there fillings shooting it, it ain't gunna work.
2 cents worth.
Buxndiverdux
Well-Known Member
Cartridge choice is basic math. The numbers speak for themselves.
The wildcard is the nut behind the trigger.
Pick a rifle and a shot you can shoot comfortably without recoil being a fear. You will be more successful because of it.
The wildcard is the nut behind the trigger.
Pick a rifle and a shot you can shoot comfortably without recoil being a fear. You will be more successful because of it.
screech
Well-Known Member
From my experiences with elk is it's honestly kind of a crap shoot. I've killed a few elk from 700-1000yrds with an stw that never moved, I've seen them killed with 22-250s and 243s where they didn't make it 20yrds. Then I've seen them take 4 338win mags in the boiler room and keep walking. A final shot in the back finally put him down. Also watched a cow take a 375 cheytac and drop get back up and make it 50yrds before giving up the ghost.
I would suggest shooting as large as you can comfortably shoot and have confidence in. If it is a 243 shoot a 243 with good Bullets and realize you got to keep them close and good shots. If you can handle a 6.5 shoot that.
Personally if you can handle the recoil I would suggest a 7mm rem mag. Less recoil than the 300s or 338s. But being you are wanting to learn and are just getting into it the 6.5 would be a good place to start and learn. Then after you get some time under your belt maybe move to something larger if you feel you need to then
I would suggest shooting as large as you can comfortably shoot and have confidence in. If it is a 243 shoot a 243 with good Bullets and realize you got to keep them close and good shots. If you can handle a 6.5 shoot that.
Personally if you can handle the recoil I would suggest a 7mm rem mag. Less recoil than the 300s or 338s. But being you are wanting to learn and are just getting into it the 6.5 would be a good place to start and learn. Then after you get some time under your belt maybe move to something larger if you feel you need to then
mfk
Well-Known Member
I tried to quote your other post, but deleted something by mistake. 308 or 6.5 cm are great choices for all around rifles-- 308 a much longer barrel life than 6.5cm. My first rifle, a savage 16, was a 308 and it still shoots very accurately. I put the rifle hogue full aluminum bed stock (really cheap and easy to install--$230 bucks cost), and it shoots sub 1/2 inch Moa groups with hornady ELD-X 178 grainers. Pretty awesome for a cheap factory barrel. The savage is also great to be able to easily switch barrels. For my 308, the 178 grain bullet has performed well for me on deer but I have never hunted elk with it, and would limit the range for elk at 450-500 yards based on the energy and velocity I get from my rifle (22 inch barrel). I have never been out west hunting anything, and I have an elk hunt on my bucket list. I may only get out for one or two hunts elks in my lifetime. Due to my lack of elk hunting experience, and the few chances I will get to hunt elk, I will be conservative and use the recommended minimums of 1500 FP of energy and terminal velocity of 1800 FPS for bullet expansion rule of thumb (energy just a guideline/ the bullet is based on manuf specs, and experience). I will try to put as much in my favor as possible. There are many people who have hunted elk at mid/long range with 6.5cm, and they have had success with lower energy kills (sub 1500 FP and even sub 1000 FP) (can't argue with results), so there is an argument against the 1500 FP energy rule of thumb (velocity and placement the only consideration)-- I just have no experience with this and would use this as one of my parameters to be conservative for my elk hunt. I also have heard that there is a really big difference in killing a big elk verses a smaller one, so I assume energy matters more with bigger elk. ( I just built a 280AI for a possible future elk hunt and love it so far). I ordered a 6.5cm barrel to try out for PRS competition, but have not used it yet, so I cannot comment on the 6.5cm from personal experience, except there are tons of people that sing its praises, and it is lower recoiling than a 308, which is one of your concerns. Muzzle brakes help a lot with recoil, but more importantly, spotting your shots. Don't overlook Berger bullets. if you are basing choices on published bc's just understand that they can be greatly exaggerated by some manufactures. bullet's terminal performance is another important consideration. this forum has lots of info on that. I don't think you will get one rifle for everything you would like to be able to do. Many different cartridges have pros and cons for particular cartridges recoil/barrel/kill range/ availability of ammo or reloading complaints, and cost to shoot just a few considerations to consider for what you want to be able to do with your rifle. Have fun and enjoy this with your kids!
necktweaker
Member
Thanks everybody for all of the information and opinions. I got an answer to my original question of what is important for lethality.
