Discussion about bullets, tumbling and expanding

[FEENIX]

Nathan's studies for me are interesting from a hunting standpoint but also interesting if you look at what has happened to our 5.56 military cartridge and rifles over the years. First they used a high velocity 55 grain bullet from a 20" 12 twist barrel IIRC. The 12" twist only marginally stabilized the bullet which produced some initial yaw in the projectile. Combine that with the higher velocity and you got a very high likelihood that the bullet would tumble on impact and create larger wound channels. Then we decided that the combination created inhumane wounds. Introduce the m855 and the 14" barrel of the M4 today along with a much faster twist rate. It barely makes the tumbling threshold at muzzle velocity and is much more likely to pencil through therefore creating a far less humane wound and in my opinion decreasing the rounds knockdown or killing power significantly. I don't know. I was bored so I figured I would share that.

Nathan's pretty bad arse.

 

[Calvin45]

I've been changed from Berger/ELD to Bonded multiple times. For mono metal I really like hammers, my experience has been outstanding to 400 yards. At this point in time I'm in the Heavy x caliber Berger/ELD, 156s x 6.5s, 175s and above for 7s, and over 200s for 30s. All these have worked great lately. Next season maybe I'll play with something else, all part of the fun.

I hear ya. Im not loyal or zealously attached to any one bullet construction type or caliber (but if I was it'd be .30") or velocity, or sectional density, etc….

I'm impractical. I prefer to try something new even when I know what works haha. Trying hammers myself for the first time this year for whitetail, .257 bee.

 

[Calvin45]

Calvin, I've seen exactly what he/you are referring to with a friend shooting whitetail with 300win mag. Partly poor bullet choice but animals were running much farther than similarly hit animals shot with 270 and 30/06. Crazy things can happen

And I've observed my .300 win mag put them down faster than similar shots with my .270 BUT with an apples to apples comparison. I'm not shooting 200+grain bonded or mono bullets through broadside skinny whitetails with a .300 win compared to 130 soft points out of the .270.

Despite its weight the 225 eld m is incredibly fast killing on light framed game out of The 300 doing 2760. As is the 120 Barnes tac tx at 4000 fps. As is the 180 Nosler ballistic tip at 3000.

 

[Turpentine21]

Bullet wound profiles for non dangerous game are one thing, then they get a bit blurry for those animals that straddle the divide, and then you have those firmly in the bite kick gore and get even camp and not all game is shot at put a stamp on the bullet distances.

So any development of bullet design and selection, in my opinion, has to consider who what where and a personal comfort level as well as do you want it to get into a swamp bog lake or where you can't recover it.

The needs of a military are ruled by more than just lethality, so while the bullets are suitable for combat between Hague and Geneva convention signatories who are also modern equipped armies, they are lacking when applied against third word or bush league combatants.

That is why JAG has a ruling about what ammunition can be used against non signatories of the Hague Convention's, when a formal war has not been declared. Yes you do need a lawyer to figure it out.

My selection of bullet my go towards a bit tougher bullet , that gives me , a thru and thru, with a fair bit of damage in between.

There certainly are a lot of criteria that go into bullet selection For any undertaking. What may be spectacular in the more open Midwest may invite trouble in briars, swamps, marsh, and ultra thick nasty terrain of the south.
As a soldier shooting a combatant I would certainly take some comfort in knowing I had the most lethal combination allowed and in 5.56 I just don't see m855 out of a 14" barrel being my first choice. I'd take xm193 given a choice.

 

[haisardao]

I hear ya. Im not loyal or zealously attached to any one bullet construction type or caliber (but if I was it'd be .30") or velocity, or sectional density, etc….

I'm impractical. I prefer to try something new even when I know what works haha. Trying hammers myself for the first time this year for whitetail, .257 bee.

You're going to love hammers in that 257, my hunting buddy shoots them in a 25-06, deadly for sure. Good luck!

 

[haisardao]

There certainly are a lot of criteria that go into bullet selection For any undertaking. What may be spectacular in the more open Midwest may invite trouble in briars, swamps, marsh, and ultra thick nasty terrain of the south.
As a soldier shooting a combatant I would certainly take some comfort in knowing I had the most lethal combination allowed and in 5.56 I just don't see m855 out of a 14" barrel being my first choice. I'd take xm193 given a choice.

You make a great point, you have to match terrain with bullet selection. Where I hunt in TX, it's mesquite and cedar, nasty stuff, makes tracking deer pretty hard if they don't drop within a few yards. This lesson was learned the hard way using Barnes bullets, because I think they kill more like an arrow. I'm sure they're good bullets, just not good for what I do.

 

[shaughn]

They weren't wearing high grade body armor when the m193 was first envisioned either. The m855 was eventually fielded due to the adoption by the Soviets of body armor similar in concept to what is used by American forces and if rumors were true legal opinions at high level that use in an official war that m193 use could result in executions at war tribunals by participants....but that was only rumors as far as I heard.

Same was heard in ww1 about using lead bullet in .455 Webley revolvers, they switched over to jacketed after the Germans threatened summary executions of any soldier caught carrying the lead bulleted ammuntion.

So....

 

[Turpentine21]

I tend to shoot cheaper offerings as I rarely hunt In the true sense of the word anymore. Almost all of the animals I kill are shot in a depredation role and the number of animals is quite high. For actual hunting I've always liked Accubonds and a shoulder shot. I have no complaints with the Accubonds at all.

 

[Calvin45]

They weren't wearing high grade body armor when the m193 was first envisioned either. The m855 was eventually fielded due to the adoption by the Soviets of body armor similar in concept to what is used by American forces and if rumors were true legal opinions at high level that use in an official war that m193 use could result in executions at war tribunals by participants....but that was only rumors as far as I heard.

Same was heard in ww1 about using lead bullet in .455 Webley revolvers, they switched over to jacketed after the Germans threatened summary executions of any soldier caught carrying the lead bulleted ammuntion.

So....

Not laughing at you, just at the absurdity of all that summary execution nonsense.

I recall the use of trench shotguns in ww2 was "a war crime". . At least according to those on the receiving end…

 

[Turpentine21]

They weren't wearing high grade body armor when the m193 was first envisioned either. The m855 was eventually fielded due to the adoption by the Soviets of body armor similar in concept to what is used by American forces and if rumors were true legal opinions at high level that use in an official war that m193 use could result in executions at war tribunals by participants....but that was only rumors as far as I heard.

Same was heard in ww1 about using lead bullet in .455 Webley revolvers, they switched over to jacketed after the Germans threatened summary executions of any soldier caught carrying the lead bulleted ammuntion.

So....

Same with the Russian snipers using so called "explosive" projectiles in WW2. Then some Germans started using captured Mosin sniper rifles with same said explosive projectiles. But my tangent was just what I thought was an interesting point on tumbling and history. I do however have a very poor opinion of the M4-M855 combo.

 

[Mike D Texas]

You make a great point, you have to match terrain with bullet selection. Where I hunt in TX, it's mesquite and cedar, nasty stuff, makes tracking deer pretty hard if they don't drop within a few yards. This lesson was learned the hard way using Barnes bullets, because I think they kill more like an arrow. I'm sure they're good bullets, just not good for what I do.

Barnes bullets are extremely deadly if driven at their optimal velocity windows which is higher than most. I won't use them on cartridges with muzzle velocities under 3000fps.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

I tend to shoot cheaper offerings as I rarely hunt In the true sense of the word anymore. Almost all of the animals I kill are shot in a depredation role and the number of animals is quite high. For actual hunting I've always liked Accubonds and a shoulder shot. I have no complaints with the Accubonds at all.

At reasonable velocity they work from EVERY angle.
Even the less preferred.

 

[haisardao]

At reasonable velocity they work from EVERY angle.
Even the less preferred.

So true, I've killed so many deer with Core Lok bullets. All shots within 200 yards. It was all I could buy then.

 

[shaughn]

Like I said lethality of its bullets comes a long way down the line as far as the "Military " is concerned, I can drop napalm on you.....9 16 inch 2600 pound shells from a battle ship parked off your beach...drive over you with a 70 ton tank...perforate you with 30mm shells from an A10 ground attack aircraft ....and use a guided missile addressed to you personally.....but heaven forbid that I use a bullet that is in any better designed at injuring the participants than any of the aforementioned......

Read any of the various rulings that JAG or any of the other legal agencies involved with the rules of Land Warfare and you will wonder how either side could even find someone who could even figure out if they could pull a trigger.

But I understand what you mean about the executions, look into the Court Martial all sides indulged in , in all the wars from the War between the States to Vietnam and you will be very disappointed in all countries involved, none of them had stellar records.

All have skeletons in the closets.