Carbon Fiber Barrel Accuracy

[Rick Richard]

I had a 300 WM with a Proof barrel on it and it sure was cool looking, however was not any more accurate than my other rifles with premium barrels on them. Also, not that much lighter in weight either when you consider a heavily fluted steel barrel. Will I have another? Probably with the right build.

 

[RH300UM]

What muzzle brake is that on rifle laying on a pack in rocky area ?

Area 419 sidewinder I don't use it when I'm guiding though.
I does tame the recoil a lot

 

[Truk505]

Here's 4 shots @ 100yds

 

[johnlittletree]

Carbon fiber is stiffer and can be stronger than steel under very specific conditions for it's weight. This is why they use copper and cardboard cores and foam and form carbon fiber around it or they use sophisticated looms like Toyota did on the Toyota.Lexus LFA so no core. F1 pioneered the use of copper core, paper core and balsa as substrates for carbon fiber. You always have to compare weight when looking at various man made fibers being used to replace steel if you take out the weight portion then steel wins all the time but weight is important in a lot of things! Just like fluting a barrel does not add stiffness to the barrels what it does if done right is remove mass while not negatively affecting stiffness. Normally as mass is removed from a structure you lose strength in some way be it stiffness, elastic modulus, bending moment something....On that same note you can only add so much mass before you run into a limit as well and that is when shape like cutting a circle of metal out and then flaring the diameter like we see in aircraft wings made from metal. The flaring of the hole allows you to remove mass and still have a stiff structure stiffer than if you just left the mass in that area.

No one is saying that Proof does not make a great barrel only that the reason they are great and accurate has nothing to do with the carbon fiber wrap if that was the case we could take Green Mountain Barrel Blanks and wrap them in carbon fiber and they would be Uber Barrels! We know that is not the case. I have no problem with their price at all I just hate lies, disinformation, spin, propaganda or mis-directions like we see with slight of hand! I would not hesitate to buy one of their steel barrels if I needed a barrel! Also if the carbon fiber was so great why do they need to wrap it around a steel cut rifled barrel? If it was so great the entire barrel could be built out of it.

If you look at the specification sheet nothing people claim about 416R as compared to 4150V is true. It is not stronger, it is not more heat resistant, it does not harden any better or more completely it is not more homogeneous than 4150V. It's only claim to fame is that it machines better because it is 13% sulfur content. It still rusts easily it does not easily pit. Everything about it is less than 4150V except how much easier it machines. What OEM are basically doing is urinating in your face and telling you it is raining. They misrepresent the truth in a very careful way so as to make something out to be better so they can charge a premium for it. If they just said it machines better and they did not try to sell it as being better in every way and a premium product I would not have an issue. They should discount the barrels made from it since it is easier on their tooling and reduces the chance of waste because it machines easier. 416R will always suffer from throat erosion faster than a 4150V or better. It is chemically and physically impossible for it not too! It is no different than how a 1095 knife blade will always rust before a 440C blade under identical conditions it not chemically, physically or electrical possible for it not too. It is not a belief it is a scientific empirical fact. 4150V can take more heat and is more resistant to abrasion wear than 416R so that alone means it will last longer.

Everything on Proofs site about 416R is cut and paste from Cruicbles sight which is where my info was cut and pasted from as well. If you are going to cut and paste you should cite it at the very least.

http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=30e7827a70ba4e05920d0e24fcb973c4

Crucible 416R
Physical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Density

7.75 g/cc

0.280 lb/in³


Mechanical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Hardness, Brinell

170

170

Hardness, Rockwell C

28 - 36

28 - 36

Tensile Modulus

200 GPa

29000 ksi

Shear Modulus

72.3 GPa

10500 ksi


Thermal Properties

Metric

English

Comments

CTE, linear

9.90 µm/m-°C
@Temperature -6.00 - 100 °C

5.50 µin/in-°F
@Temperature 21.2 - 212 °F


10.1 µm/m-°C
@Temperature 0.000 - 315 °C

5.61 µin/in-°F
@Temperature 32.0 - 599 °F


11.5 µm/m-°C
@Temperature 0.000 - 538 °C

6.39 µin/in-°F
@Temperature 32.0 - 1000 °F

Specific Heat Capacity

0.460 J/g-°C
@Temperature 0.000 - 100 °C

0.110 BTU/lb-°F
@Temperature 32.0 - 212 °F

Thermal Conductivity

25.1 W/m-K
@Temperature 93.0 °C

174 BTU-in/hr-ft²-°F
@Temperature 199 °F


28.5 W/m-K
@Temperature 538 °C

198 BTU-in/hr-ft²-°F
@Temperature 1000 °F


Component Elements Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Carbon, C

0.12 %

0.12 %

Chromium, Cr

12.5 %

12.5 %

Iron, Fe

86.05 %

86.05 %

As Remainder

Manganese, Mn

0.40 %

0.40 %

Molybdenum, Mo

0.40 %

0.40 %

Silicon, Si

0.40 %

0.40 %

Sulfur, S

0.13 %

0.13 %


Crucible 4150V

Physical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Density

7.85 g/cc

0.284 lb/in³


Mechanical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Hardness, Brinell

302

302

Hardness, Knoop

328

328

Converted from Brinell

Hardness, Rockwell B

99

99

Converted from Brinell

Hardness, Rockwell C

32

32

Converted from Brinell

Hardness, Vickers

319

319

Converted from Brinell

Tensile Strength, Ultimate

1035 MPa

150100 psi

Tensile Strength, Yield

910 MPa

132000 psi

Elongation at Break

18.7 %

18.7 %

in 50 mm

Reduction of Area

56.4 %

56.4 %

Modulus of Elasticity

205 GPa

29700 ksi

Typical for steel

Bulk Modulus

160 GPa

23200 ksi

Typical for steels

Poissons Ratio

0.29

0.29

Calculated

Machinability

55 %

55 %

annealed and cold drawn; based on AISI 1212 as 100% machinability

Shear Modulus

80.0 GPa

11600 ksi

Typical for steels


Electrical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Electrical Resistivity

0.0000245 ohm-cm

0.0000245 ohm-cm

Typical 4000 series steel


Thermal Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Specific Heat Capacity

0.475 J/g-°C

0.114 BTU/lb-°F

Typical 4000 series steel

Thermal Conductivity

44.5 W/m-K

309 BTU-in/hr-ft²-°F

Typical steel


Component Elements Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Carbon, C

0.47 - 0.54 %

0.47 - 0.54 %

Chromium, Cr

0.75 - 1.2 %

0.75 - 1.2 %

Iron, Fe

96.535 - 97.83 %

96.535 - 97.83 %

As remainder

Manganese, Mn

0.65 - 1.1 %

0.65 - 1.1 %

Molybdenum, Mo

0.15 - 0.25 %

0.15 - 0.25 %

Phosphorous, P

<= 0.035 %

<= 0.035 %

Silicon, Si

0.15 - 0.30 %

0.15 - 0.30 %

Sulfur, S

<= 0.040 %

<= 0.040 %

 

[mountaincarver]

This is what I am seeing with mine. I ran out yesterday after work and shot these groups to show what is typical for mine coming in and out of a node. it never shoots worse than the two outside ones but rarely better than the middle one no matter what powder or bullet or seating depth. I was expecting a little better. mine has printed groups like yours when less than a hundred rounds through it but never again. my son has a proof and does what yours does. these groups are 220 yards. im considering spinning on a proof although for what im doing I don't need the accuracy, but.... you know how it is...

 

[Truk505]

Carbon fiber is stiffer and can be stronger than steel under very specific conditions for it's weight. This is why they use copper and cardboard cores and foam and form carbon fiber around it or they use sophisticated looms like Toyota did on the Toyota.Lexus LFA so no core. F1 pioneered the use of copper core, paper core and balsa as substrates for carbon fiber. You always have to compare weight when looking at various man made fibers being used to replace steel if you take out the weight portion then steel wins all the time but weight is important in a lot of things! Just like fluting a barrel does not add stiffness to the barrels what it does if done right is remove mass while not negatively affecting stiffness. Normally as mass is removed from a structure you lose strength in some way be it stiffness, elastic modulus, bending moment something....On that same note you can only add so much mass before you run into a limit as well and that is when shape like cutting a circle of metal out and then flaring the diameter like we see in aircraft wings made from metal. The flaring of the hole allows you to remove mass and still have a stiff structure stiffer than if you just left the mass in that area.

No one is saying that Proof does not make a great barrel only that the reason they are great and accurate has nothing to do with the carbon fiber wrap if that was the case we could take Green Mountain Barrel Blanks and wrap them in carbon fiber and they would be Uber Barrels! We know that is not the case. I have no problem with their price at all I just hate lies, disinformation, spin, propaganda or mis-directions like we see with slight of hand! I would not hesitate to buy one of their steel barrels if I needed a barrel! Also if the carbon fiber was so great why do they need to wrap it around a steel cut rifled barrel? If it was so great the entire barrel could be built out of it.

If you look at the specification sheet nothing people claim about 416R as compared to 4150V is true. It is not stronger, it is not more heat resistant, it does not harden any better or more completely it is not more homogeneous than 4150V. It's only claim to fame is that it machines better because it is 13% sulfur content. It still rusts easily it does not easily pit. Everything about it is less than 4150V except how much easier it machines. What OEM are basically doing is urinating in your face and telling you it is raining. They misrepresent the truth in a very careful way so as to make something out to be better so they can charge a premium for it. If they just said it machines better and they did not try to sell it as being better in every way and a premium product I would not have an issue. They should discount the barrels made from it since it is easier on their tooling and reduces the chance of waste because it machines easier. 416R will always suffer from throat erosion faster than a 4150V or better. It is chemically and physically impossible for it not too! It is no different than how a 1095 knife blade will always rust before a 440C blade under identical conditions it not chemically, physically or electrical possible for it not too. It is not a belief it is a scientific empirical fact. 4150V can take more heat and is more resistant to abrasion wear than 416R so that alone means it will last longer.

Everything on Proofs site about 416R is cut and paste from Cruicbles sight which is where my info was cut and pasted from as well. If you are going to cut and paste you should cite it at the very least.

http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=30e7827a70ba4e05920d0e24fcb973c4

Crucible 416R
Physical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Density

7.75 g/cc

0.280 lb/in³


Mechanical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Hardness, Brinell

170

170

Hardness, Rockwell C

28 - 36

28 - 36

Tensile Modulus

200 GPa

29000 ksi

Shear Modulus

72.3 GPa

10500 ksi


Thermal Properties

Metric

English

Comments

CTE, linear

9.90 µm/m-°C
@Temperature -6.00 - 100 °C

5.50 µin/in-°F
@Temperature 21.2 - 212 °F


10.1 µm/m-°C
@Temperature 0.000 - 315 °C

5.61 µin/in-°F
@Temperature 32.0 - 599 °F


11.5 µm/m-°C
@Temperature 0.000 - 538 °C

6.39 µin/in-°F
@Temperature 32.0 - 1000 °F

Specific Heat Capacity

0.460 J/g-°C
@Temperature 0.000 - 100 °C

0.110 BTU/lb-°F
@Temperature 32.0 - 212 °F

Thermal Conductivity

25.1 W/m-K
@Temperature 93.0 °C

174 BTU-in/hr-ft²-°F
@Temperature 199 °F


28.5 W/m-K
@Temperature 538 °C

198 BTU-in/hr-ft²-°F
@Temperature 1000 °F


Component Elements Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Carbon, C

0.12 %

0.12 %

Chromium, Cr

12.5 %

12.5 %

Iron, Fe

86.05 %

86.05 %

As Remainder

Manganese, Mn

0.40 %

0.40 %

Molybdenum, Mo

0.40 %

0.40 %

Silicon, Si

0.40 %

0.40 %

Sulfur, S

0.13 %

0.13 %


Crucible 4150V

Physical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Density

7.85 g/cc

0.284 lb/in³


Mechanical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Hardness, Brinell

302

302

Hardness, Knoop

328

328

Converted from Brinell

Hardness, Rockwell B

99

99

Converted from Brinell

Hardness, Rockwell C

32

32

Converted from Brinell

Hardness, Vickers

319

319

Converted from Brinell

Tensile Strength, Ultimate

1035 MPa

150100 psi

Tensile Strength, Yield

910 MPa

132000 psi

Elongation at Break

18.7 %

18.7 %

in 50 mm

Reduction of Area

56.4 %

56.4 %

Modulus of Elasticity

205 GPa

29700 ksi

Typical for steel

Bulk Modulus

160 GPa

23200 ksi

Typical for steels

Poissons Ratio

0.29

0.29

Calculated

Machinability

55 %

55 %

annealed and cold drawn; based on AISI 1212 as 100% machinability

Shear Modulus

80.0 GPa

11600 ksi

Typical for steels


Electrical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Electrical Resistivity

0.0000245 ohm-cm

0.0000245 ohm-cm

Typical 4000 series steel


Thermal Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Specific Heat Capacity

0.475 J/g-°C

0.114 BTU/lb-°F

Typical 4000 series steel

Thermal Conductivity

44.5 W/m-K

309 BTU-in/hr-ft²-°F

Typical steel


Component Elements Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Carbon, C

0.47 - 0.54 %

0.47 - 0.54 %

Chromium, Cr

0.75 - 1.2 %

0.75 - 1.2 %

Iron, Fe

96.535 - 97.83 %

96.535 - 97.83 %

As remainder

Manganese, Mn

0.65 - 1.1 %

0.65 - 1.1 %

Molybdenum, Mo

0.15 - 0.25 %

0.15 - 0.25 %

Phosphorous, P

<= 0.035 %

<= 0.035 %

Silicon, Si

0.15 - 0.30 %

0.15 - 0.30 %

Sulfur, S

<= 0.040 %

<= 0.040 %

If carbon fiber isn't so great then you wouldn't see all the manufacturers jumping on board, and most are using proof barrels. Nosler just released the 48 with a carbon barrel, Weatherby last year, and I bet within the next ten years Winchester and Remington will have theres as well.

 

[troupe]

The other manufactures will jump on if the barrel supply can be met, along with the price point that the rifle is profitable. I don't believe that you will see Proof supplying the barrels. Proof is a custom manufacture where there is more profit. Who supplied the barrels to Nosler, and Weatherby ? How many Nosler and Weatherby rifles has been sold. I hope everyone jumps on board. The more out there, the price will come down.

 

[Stk]

I have one Proof barreled 6.5 CM rifle I picked up recently. Had it to the range last weekend. I shot 3, 3 shot groups using two kinds of factory Hornady ammo (Match and Precision Hunter). The groups measured .32, .30 and .29. I'm very impressed and will definitely be looking out for another one.

 

[Truk505]

The other manufactures will jump on if the barrel supply can be met, along with the price point that the rifle is profitable. I don't believe that you will see Proof supplying the barrels. Proof is a custom manufacture where there is more profit. Who supplied the barrels to Nosler, and Weatherby ? How many Nosler and Weatherby rifles has been sold. I hope everyone jumps on board. The more out there, the price will come down.

Both Weatherby and Nosler are using proof barrels, as is Gunwerks. I'm not sure how long Proof will be able to keep up with the demand.

 

[tvarden]

This is what I am seeing with mine. I ran out yesterday after work and shot these groups to show what is typical for mine coming in and out of a node. it never shoots worse than the two outside ones but rarely better than the middle one no matter what powder or bullet or seating depth. I was expecting a little better. mine has printed groups like yours when less than a hundred rounds through it but never again. my son has a proof and does what yours does. these groups are 220 yards. im considering spinning on a proof although for what im doing I don't need the accuracy, but.... you know how it is...View attachment 119371

Have you check everything else? Action torqued and tight in stock, muzzle brake is tight, barrel not touching anything while shooting? Seems it could be something besides the barrel.

 

[Buck Buster]

Carbon fiber is stiffer and can be stronger than steel under very specific conditions for it's weight. This is why they use copper and cardboard cores and foam and form carbon fiber around it or they use sophisticated looms like Toyota did on the Toyota.Lexus LFA so no core. F1 pioneered the use of copper core, paper core and balsa as substrates for carbon fiber. You always have to compare weight when looking at various man made fibers being used to replace steel if you take out the weight portion then steel wins all the time but weight is important in a lot of things! Just like fluting a barrel does not add stiffness to the barrels what it does if done right is remove mass while not negatively affecting stiffness. Normally as mass is removed from a structure you lose strength in some way be it stiffness, elastic modulus, bending moment something....On that same note you can only add so much mass before you run into a limit as well and that is when shape like cutting a circle of metal out and then flaring the diameter like we see in aircraft wings made from metal. The flaring of the hole allows you to remove mass and still have a stiff structure stiffer than if you just left the mass in that area.

No one is saying that Proof does not make a great barrel only that the reason they are great and accurate has nothing to do with the carbon fiber wrap if that was the case we could take Green Mountain Barrel Blanks and wrap them in carbon fiber and they would be Uber Barrels! We know that is not the case. I have no problem with their price at all I just hate lies, disinformation, spin, propaganda or mis-directions like we see with slight of hand! I would not hesitate to buy one of their steel barrels if I needed a barrel! Also if the carbon fiber was so great why do they need to wrap it around a steel cut rifled barrel? If it was so great the entire barrel could be built out of it.

If you look at the specification sheet nothing people claim about 416R as compared to 4150V is true. It is not stronger, it is not more heat resistant, it does not harden any better or more completely it is not more homogeneous than 4150V. It's only claim to fame is that it machines better because it is 13% sulfur content. It still rusts easily it does not easily pit. Everything about it is less than 4150V except how much easier it machines. What OEM are basically doing is urinating in your face and telling you it is raining. They misrepresent the truth in a very careful way so as to make something out to be better so they can charge a premium for it. If they just said it machines better and they did not try to sell it as being better in every way and a premium product I would not have an issue. They should discount the barrels made from it since it is easier on their tooling and reduces the chance of waste because it machines easier. 416R will always suffer from throat erosion faster than a 4150V or better. It is chemically and physically impossible for it not too! It is no different than how a 1095 knife blade will always rust before a 440C blade under identical conditions it not chemically, physically or electrical possible for it not too. It is not a belief it is a scientific empirical fact. 4150V can take more heat and is more resistant to abrasion wear than 416R so that alone means it will last longer.

Everything on Proofs site about 416R is cut and paste from Cruicbles sight which is where my info was cut and pasted from as well. If you are going to cut and paste you should cite it at the very least.

http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=30e7827a70ba4e05920d0e24fcb973c4

Crucible 416R
Physical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Density

7.75 g/cc

0.280 lb/in³


Mechanical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Hardness, Brinell

170

170

Hardness, Rockwell C

28 - 36

28 - 36

Tensile Modulus

200 GPa

29000 ksi

Shear Modulus

72.3 GPa

10500 ksi


Thermal Properties

Metric

English

Comments

CTE, linear

9.90 µm/m-°C
@Temperature -6.00 - 100 °C

5.50 µin/in-°F
@Temperature 21.2 - 212 °F


10.1 µm/m-°C
@Temperature 0.000 - 315 °C

5.61 µin/in-°F
@Temperature 32.0 - 599 °F


11.5 µm/m-°C
@Temperature 0.000 - 538 °C

6.39 µin/in-°F
@Temperature 32.0 - 1000 °F

Specific Heat Capacity

0.460 J/g-°C
@Temperature 0.000 - 100 °C

0.110 BTU/lb-°F
@Temperature 32.0 - 212 °F

Thermal Conductivity

25.1 W/m-K
@Temperature 93.0 °C

174 BTU-in/hr-ft²-°F
@Temperature 199 °F


28.5 W/m-K
@Temperature 538 °C

198 BTU-in/hr-ft²-°F
@Temperature 1000 °F


Component Elements Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Carbon, C

0.12 %

0.12 %

Chromium, Cr

12.5 %

12.5 %

Iron, Fe

86.05 %

86.05 %

As Remainder

Manganese, Mn

0.40 %

0.40 %

Molybdenum, Mo

0.40 %

0.40 %

Silicon, Si

0.40 %

0.40 %

Sulfur, S

0.13 %

0.13 %


Crucible 4150V

Physical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Density

7.85 g/cc

0.284 lb/in³


Mechanical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Hardness, Brinell

302

302

Hardness, Knoop

328

328

Converted from Brinell

Hardness, Rockwell B

99

99

Converted from Brinell

Hardness, Rockwell C

32

32

Converted from Brinell

Hardness, Vickers

319

319

Converted from Brinell

Tensile Strength, Ultimate

1035 MPa

150100 psi

Tensile Strength, Yield

910 MPa

132000 psi

Elongation at Break

18.7 %

18.7 %

in 50 mm

Reduction of Area

56.4 %

56.4 %

Modulus of Elasticity

205 GPa

29700 ksi

Typical for steel

Bulk Modulus

160 GPa

23200 ksi

Typical for steels

Poissons Ratio

0.29

0.29

Calculated

Machinability

55 %

55 %

annealed and cold drawn; based on AISI 1212 as 100% machinability

Shear Modulus

80.0 GPa

11600 ksi

Typical for steels


Electrical Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Electrical Resistivity

0.0000245 ohm-cm

0.0000245 ohm-cm

Typical 4000 series steel


Thermal Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Specific Heat Capacity

0.475 J/g-°C

0.114 BTU/lb-°F

Typical 4000 series steel

Thermal Conductivity

44.5 W/m-K

309 BTU-in/hr-ft²-°F

Typical steel


Component Elements Properties

Metric

English

Comments

Carbon, C

0.47 - 0.54 %

0.47 - 0.54 %

Chromium, Cr

0.75 - 1.2 %

0.75 - 1.2 %

Iron, Fe

96.535 - 97.83 %

96.535 - 97.83 %

As remainder

Manganese, Mn

0.65 - 1.1 %

0.65 - 1.1 %

Molybdenum, Mo

0.15 - 0.25 %

0.15 - 0.25 %

Phosphorous, P

<= 0.035 %

<= 0.035 %

Silicon, Si

0.15 - 0.30 %

0.15 - 0.30 %

Sulfur, S

<= 0.040 %

<= 0.040 %

I am not a Scientist ! I would just like to know in yes or no terms if they would break or crack if say they slide off a horse and onto some rocks or fell from a truck bed ? I'm sure you have it on here somewhere, but I am not a professor !

 

[Truk505]

I am not a Scientist ! I would just like to know in yes or no terms if they would break or crack if say they slide off a horse and onto some rocks or fell from a truck bed ? I'm sure you have it on here somewhere, but I am not a professor !

I doubt it, check out the proof torture test.

 

[Buck Buster]

I doubt it, check out the proof torture test.

Thanks for sharing this ! I feel what was shown would be more of a punishment than a hunter would probably ever give it ! It should even survive a fall out of a tree ! Thanks again this answered my question !

 

[Iron Worker]

Rifles falling out of trucks and off horses and tree stands. Someone needs to a bit more careful .