Bullet??????

[bigngreen]

I don't want to be argumentative here but at what speed is the 215g or the 230g an over sized varmint load? What impact velocity is the 185 good for? A few years ago a 185 was considered a big 30 cal bullet.

This stuff is the reason I got into making bullets. This notion that a bullet has not done it's job unless it sticks in the hide on the far side is preposterous. That would mean you have to have exactly the right impact velocity and thickness of animal. There is no such thing as knock down power. It is a myth. If you hit an elk with any bullet from a hand held rifle that did not penetrate and bounced off making the animal take all of the energy from the bullet it would not even knock them off balance let alone knock them down. It takes internal destruction to kill them. The faster a bullet is traveling the more destruction it causes unless it stays pointed or does not penetrate far enough. If the bullet deforms into a square front like a dangerous game bullet and displaces soft tissue perpendicular to the direction of travel all the way though the animal then it has done it's job. The faster it is traveling the farther it displaces the soft tissue. So it is better to pass through faster.

The old timers in Alaska used to load bullets backwards for close up grizzly shots. Because they would hold their weight, penetrate deep, and displace soft tissue perpendicular the travel of the bullet.

Animals die from bleeding to death in order to shut down the central nervous system, or hitting the central nervous system directly, or infection when shot.

Now if you want to use a bullet that comes completely undone for hunting big game you had better use the biggest thing you can get a hold of in hopes that the weight of the bullet can overcome the disintegration and travel far enough through the animal to cause the central nervous system to shut down.

I will end this by saying that no bullet is perfect and no two shots are identical. A good hunter is always ready for a follow up shot and able to track an animal that has been hit.

Steve

How did you get there from Rich's post Steve? I think Rich is specifically talking the 185 Berger at RUM velocities which is indeed to much speed for that bullet construction unlike the Hammer which will thrive at that velocity!

 

[elkaholic]

I don't want to be argumentative here but at what speed is the 215g or the 230g an over sized varmint load? What impact velocity is the 185 good for? A few years ago a 185 was considered a big 30 cal bullet.

This stuff is the reason I got into making bullets. This notion that a bullet has not done it's job unless it sticks in the hide on the far side is preposterous. That would mean you have to have exactly the right impact velocity and thickness of animal. There is no such thing as knock down power. It is a myth. If you hit an elk with any bullet from a hand held rifle that did not penetrate and bounced off making the animal take all of the energy from the bullet it would not even knock them off balance let alone knock them down. It takes internal destruction to kill them. The faster a bullet is traveling the more destruction it causes unless it stays pointed or does not penetrate far enough. If the bullet deforms into a square front like a dangerous game bullet and displaces soft tissue perpendicular to the direction of travel all the way though the animal then it has done it's job. The faster it is traveling the farther it displaces the soft tissue. So it is better to pass through faster.

The old timers in Alaska used to load bullets backwards for close up grizzly shots. Because they would hold their weight, penetrate deep, and displace soft tissue perpendicular the travel of the bullet.

Animals die from bleeding to death in order to shut down the central nervous system, or hitting the central nervous system directly, or infection when shot.

Now if you want to use a bullet that comes completely undone for hunting big game you had better use the biggest thing you can get a hold of in hopes that the weight of the bullet can overcome the disintegration and travel far enough through the animal to cause the central nervous system to shut down.

I will end this by saying that no bullet is perfect and no two shots are identical. A good hunter is always ready for a follow up shot and able to track an animal that has been hit.

Steve

I have been making bullets for some time and mine don't work that well at close range for the same reason the 185 Berger doesn't at that velocity. You may get some spectacular kills and then you may blow a few pounds of meat out of an elks shoulder and have him run off! A 215 0r 230 takes considerable more distance (penetration) to come completely apart so shot placement is LESS critical and blood trails are more common. They will also have lower impact velocity in the same rifle and will allow even more penetration and less explosiveness! If he was shooting the 185 Berger in a 30-06, maybe the 185 would be an ok choice, but in a RUM, it makes far more sense to use a heavier bullet. I don't understand why that does not make sense to you? I am pretty sure, as a bullet maker, that you realize the higher the velocity and the lower the sectional density, the less penetration you will get unless you are using an fmj......Rich

 

[Wachsmann]

I will first support the heavy bullet in a RUM velocity type cartridge. Second for a tried and true pass through bullet would be Barns...Sounds like the Hammer bullets are relatively the same thing and the GMX bullets. There are the long running Nosler partitions as well. Berger will offer excellent accuracy and I suspect so will the Barns and the Hammers. You may be able to get the Barns a little easier from your local gun shop. I have a buddy that shoot the 175 or 200 in his 300WSM and loves them. Gets good pass thoughs at all ranges on mule deer. I think his longest is 5-600 yards. He still had a pass through at that range.

 

[bigngreen]

so what's your hunting setup?

I shoot 215 Bergers in a 308, never had one not exit but I honestly don't care about the exit but what's in the middle, my 10 year old daughter has tracked deer and elk hit with it since she was 6 so she could learn how to trail and ID hits based on the blood trails. I've shot a lot of 140 Bergers in 6.5's, never caught one in a deer even shooting through both shoulders, did catch one in a cow elk last year, she was getting out of dodge and I caught her with a heavy quartering shot right in low shoulder with a steep up angle, blew her shoulder, blew all the lung and big blood vessels in the front of the chest and I found the mangle base of the bullet under the skin up in her neck, she went two steps and flipped over and slide 300 yards down hill to my feet.
The 300 Win mags, with 215's and 230, never had one move out of sight, 230s exit most ranges 215 some do some don't depending on how hard the hit was. The 230 in RUM's clean them out and get good penetration, I'm playing with 30-338 Lapua improved to drive them out into the mile range now. I have many, many customers shooting 215's in Win mags and 230's in RUM's, many elk guides as well.
Many 300 gr Berger from RUM's, never had one not exit and elk but mostly shot with some range.
Buddy killed an Alaskan moose last year with a frontal shot with a 140 Berger hybrid, found the bullet in the back flank, he could not move after first shot because his lungs were trash but he could hold his feet so a second round caught him in the neck, that bullet was under the hide on the of side, on an alaskan bull moose with a 140 from a 6.5x284.
We've shot a pile of deer and antelope with 22-250's loaded with Berger varmint bullets, I've only seen one not exit on a doe shot close through both shoulders, put a few hundred yards on them and exits are consistent.

This is why a lot of use shoot the Berger heavy for cal, cause we just walk up to where they piled up and gather kill after kill. I'll do the same for any other bullet but I may change my shot range or placement to make sure I'm getting these kind of results, I run heavy for cal for everything now, Bergers, Cutting Edge, Hammers everything, I hate tracking, I hate guessing about if I hit something good I just want to see an animal wobbling from significant blood loss through my scope for few steps before flopping over!
If it were up to me Berger would only make two 30 cal bullets, 215 and 230 Hybrid, I've seen the 185 and 190's work but only at WSM speeds but the other two bullets are heads and shoulders better!!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

How did you get there from Rich's post Steve? I think Rich is specifically talking the 185 Berger at RUM velocities which is indeed to much speed for that bullet construction unlike the Hammer which will thrive at that velocity!

It isn't a big jump. Evidently the 185 should not be shot at 300 rum velocity. What velocity is ok for the 185? What velocity is too fast for the 230? A guy needs to know where to draw the line. Shoot or not is the question. This is what you have to deal with when shooting frangible bullets. You can do what phorwath does and carry two bullets loaded for your one rifle in case you find something up close.

Correct me if I am wrong. Was not the 300 rum designed to shoot 180g bullets?

Then comes the meat loss due to highly frangible bullets.

Steve

 

[elkaholic]

It isn't a big jump. Evidently the 185 should not be shot at 300 rum velocity. What velocity is ok for the 185? What velocity is too fast for the 230? A guy needs to know where to draw the line. Shoot or not is the question. This is what you have to deal with when shooting frangible bullets. You can do what phorwath does and carry two bullets loaded for your one rifle in case you find something up close.

Correct me if I am wrong. Was not the 300 rum designed to shoot 180g bullets?

Then comes the meat loss due to highly frangible bullets.

Steve

I think it was, but they were not 185 Bergers back then and that is what the op asked! In factory ammo you saw bullets like swift sciroccos, nosler partitions, speer grand slams etc, and for good reason.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I think it was, but they were not 185 Bergers back then and that is what the op asked! In factory ammo you saw bullets like swift sciroccos, nosler partitions, speer grand slams etc, and for good reason.

I think that answers the op's question perfectly.

Steve

 

[FEENIX]

I think that answers the op's question perfectly.

Steve

lightbulbYou gotta love it when good people with good minds come to an agreement.lightbulb

 

[ski-dooz]

I shoot 215 Bergers in a 308, never had one not exit but I honestly don't care about the exit but what's in the middle, my 10 year old daughter has tracked deer and elk hit with it since she was 6 so she could learn how to trail and ID hits based on the blood trails. I've shot a lot of 140 Bergers in 6.5's, never caught one in a deer even shooting through both shoulders, did catch one in a cow elk last year, she was getting out of dodge and I caught her with a heavy quartering shot right in low shoulder with a steep up angle, blew her shoulder, blew all the lung and big blood vessels in the front of the chest and I found the mangle base of the bullet under the skin up in her neck, she went two steps and flipped over and slide 300 yards down hill to my feet.
The 300 Win mags, with 215's and 230, never had one move out of sight, 230s exit most ranges 215 some do some don't depending on how hard the hit was. The 230 in RUM's clean them out and get good penetration, I'm playing with 30-338 Lapua improved to drive them out into the mile range now. I have many, many customers shooting 215's in Win mags and 230's in RUM's, many elk guides as well.
Many 300 gr Berger from RUM's, never had one not exit and elk but mostly shot with some range.
Buddy killed an Alaskan moose last year with a frontal shot with a 140 Berger hybrid, found the bullet in the back flank, he could not move after first shot because his lungs were trash but he could hold his feet so a second round caught him in the neck, that bullet was under the hide on the of side, on an alaskan bull moose with a 140 from a 6.5x284.
We've shot a pile of deer and antelope with 22-250's loaded with Berger varmint bullets, I've only seen one not exit on a doe shot close through both shoulders, put a few hundred yards on them and exits are consistent.

This is why a lot of use shoot the Berger heavy for cal, cause we just walk up to where they piled up and gather kill after kill. I'll do the same for any other bullet but I may change my shot range or placement to make sure I'm getting these kind of results, I run heavy for cal for everything now, Bergers, Cutting Edge, Hammers everything, I hate tracking, I hate guessing about if I hit something good I just want to see an animal wobbling from significant blood loss through my scope for few steps before flopping over!
If it were up to me Berger would only make two 30 cal bullets, 215 and 230 Hybrid, I've seen the 185 and 190's work but only at WSM speeds but the other two bullets are heads and shoulders better!!

Ok Tell me this, how dose the 210 and 230 fit in a standard magazine box? I built a custom rifle with an extended mag box that I shoot Berger 210 out of less than a half inch 5 shot group at 100 yards. I was going to try the 230 Berger but again Berger says they don't recommend them for hunting. I'm using a standard Remington SPS rum now because It only weighs 7.8 pounds ready to go with scope. I don't see that I'm going to get 210 out far enough to group well. I know the 230 are of the question. The Berger's are just too picky. What OAL are you guys shooting? Are they single shots?

 

[ski-dooz]

Why do you not use a partition in your 300 RUM?

Long range accuracy.gun)

 

[elkaholic]

Ok Tell me this, how dose the 210 and 230 fit in a standard magazine box? I built a custom rifle with an extended mag box that I shoot Berger 210 out of less than a half inch 5 shot group at 100 yards. I was going to try the 230 Berger but again Berger says they don't recommend them for hunting. I'm using a standard Remington SPS rum now because It only weighs 7.8 pounds ready to go with scope. I don't see that I'm going to get 210 out far enough to group well. I know the 230 are of the question. The Berger's are just too picky. What OAL are you guys shooting? Are they single shots?

Depending on the rifle, a lot of guys do single feed. Every rifle is a little different but sometimes the VLD's will shoot with a pretty good jump as well as close to the lands. You might try jumping them a ways. I have heard people shoot as much as .120" off. Good luck.......Rich

 

[ski-dooz]

I shoot 215 Bergers in a 308, never had one not exit but I honestly don't care about the exit but what's in the middle, my 10 year old daughter has tracked deer and elk hit with it since she was 6 so she could learn how to trail and ID hits based on the blood trails. I've shot a lot of 140 Bergers in 6.5's, never caught one in a deer even shooting through both shoulders, did catch one in a cow elk last year, she was getting out of dodge and I caught her with a heavy quartering shot right in low shoulder with a steep up angle, blew her shoulder, blew all the lung and big blood vessels in the front of the chest and I found the mangle base of the bullet under the skin up in her neck, she went two steps and flipped over and slide 300 yards down hill to my feet.
The 300 Win mags, with 215's and 230, never had one move out of sight, 230s exit most ranges 215 some do some don't depending on how hard the hit was. The 230 in RUM's clean them out and get good penetration, I'm playing with 30-338 Lapua improved to drive them out into the mile range now. I have many, many customers shooting 215's in Win mags and 230's in RUM's, many elk guides as well.
Many 300 gr Berger from RUM's, never had one not exit and elk but mostly shot with some range.
Buddy killed an Alaskan moose last year with a frontal shot with a 140 Berger hybrid, found the bullet in the back flank, he could not move after first shot because his lungs were trash but he could hold his feet so a second round caught him in the neck, that bullet was under the hide on the of side, on an alaskan bull moose with a 140 from a 6.5x284.
We've shot a pile of deer and antelope with 22-250's loaded with Berger varmint bullets, I've only seen one not exit on a doe shot close through both shoulders, put a few hundred yards on them and exits are consistent.

This is why a lot of use shoot the Berger heavy for cal, cause we just walk up to where they piled up and gather kill after kill. I'll do the same for any other bullet but I may change my shot range or placement to make sure I'm getting these kind of results, I run heavy for cal for everything now, Bergers, Cutting Edge, Hammers everything, I hate tracking, I hate guessing about if I hit something good I just want to see an animal wobbling from significant blood loss through my scope for few steps before flopping over!
If it were up to me Berger would only make two 30 cal bullets, 215 and 230 Hybrid, I've seen the 185 and 190's work but only at WSM speeds but the other two bullets are heads and shoulders better!!

Yes I too can track animals. I have been finding deer and elk with no blood trails sense I have started using Berger bullets. Some have been by tracks only for thousands of yards but I get them!!!!! Last elk season was as dry as I have ever seen it and 75-80 deg. When I hit the elk I tried to track it but I couldn't even pick more then two tracks I was sure was fresh. I looked for hours before I had to go help get my buddys elk out before it went bad. That along with the two deer my dad shot that didn't pass through that I thought F This!!!! I have thought every day sense That day about that elk. I even two days later hiked back in again same path replayed everything and looked again. We as hunters owe it to the animals and nature to find what we shoot at. That is why I started this post.

 

[elkaholic]

Yes I too can track animals. I have been finding deer and elk with no blood trails sense I have started using Berger bullets. Some have been by tracks only for thousands of yards but I get them!!!!! Last elk season was as dry as I have ever seen it and 75-80 deg. When I hit the elk I tried to track it but I couldn't even pick more then two tracks I was sure was fresh. I looked for hours before I had to go help get my buddys elk out before it went bad. That along with the two deer my dad shot that didn't pass through that I thought F This!!!! I have thought every day sense That day about that elk. I even two days later hiked back in again same path replayed everything and looked again. We as hunters owe it to the animals and nature to find what we shoot at. That is why I started this post.

I respect you for posting this and you have asked a darn good question. Anyone who has NEVER lost an elk and has hunted a lot of years, probably has not shot many. I lost one one time back in '09 (I think) because I used the wrong bullet for the distance I was shooting. Mine was the opposite (no expansion) I felt pretty bad about it but posted it anyway because, like you, I felt it was important. 90% of the guys were very supportive and a couple who likely didn't belong on the forum were not. I have learned a lot on this forum and occasionally might even have something to offer. That is what it's all about. I am not personally picking on you and I do not think anyone else is either; Especially Bigngreen.......Rich

 

[Pdvdh]

Don't use the 185gr or 210gr Bergers. If you want to use a Berger bullet, listen to the sound advice. Use the 230gr bullet in a 300RUM, for the good reasons already provided.

AND - make certain the tips of the Bergers aren't pinched shut before you shoot an elk with one of them. I had a 300gr .338 OTM with the jacket tip pinched into a solid mass of copper during manufacturing. The bullet looked perfect from exterior shape. I had already meplat uniformed and then countersunk the tip of the bullet with Kevin Cram's meplat uniforming tools when I noticed the hollowpointing tool still hadn't reached down in deeply enough to open up a hole in the nose of the jacket. I then tried to drill a hole down into the jacket tip with a sharp drill bit following the small pilot hole created with the Kevin Cram countersinking/hollowpointing tool. Instead of the drill following any "pilot" hole into the tip of the bullet, the bit exited the side of the bullet jacket about 3/16" down from the tip! Next I used a grinder, followed by a hand file, on the tip of the bullet until I'd removed enough of the jacket tip to reach a void space. I then employed the drill again to complete a hole thru the blunted nose of the jacket. I later fired this bullet into an earthen hillside during barrel break-in of a new barrel on a 338 Lapua Rogue Improved - which was about the only remaining legitimate use for it.

IF the tip of a Berger bullet is sealed off like this one was, so is your fate if you shoot a large game animal with it. You might get lucky and happy, but you could end up hating life. They aren't intended to leave the Berger production line in this condition. (Is this why Berger says they're not intended for hunting?) It's up to you to ensure one of these FMJs doesn't leave your muzzle while shooting a large game animal. It doesn't take very long to inspect your bullets. This was an extreme example of a sealed (pinched off) tip. The other sealed tips I've found haven't been swaged down and sealed shut to nearly the extent this particular bullet was.