Bullet Construction vs Lethality

[HARPERC]

Look you said you don't belong to a range and you could shoot out to a mile from your front porch. So it doesn't seem that difficult to verify your claims. You said that you have "my corrected values (verified by shooting) from shooting". So all of this is just to verify "facts" which is all part of this thread. If you don't want to then there is the end of the conversation.

I haven't found anyone more transparent than @ButterBean.

Meaning he showed us his, do we get to see yours?

 

[BEEMAN]

There really is no conclusive test. Maybe you know of one, and if you do, do it and enlighten us all. All I know is while I was using Barnes bullets, they petal I assume you know, when they opened up they did very well. Their low BCs and inconsistent petaling motivated me to make a higher BC bullet that petaled more consistently and at a lower impact velocity. We aren't the only company that subscribes to the petaling behavior. Hornady and Nosler do as well. Petal shedding leads to less weight retention and requires a more brittle copper, and is largely confined to those that make lathe turned bullets. It seems that they are using free machining copper whose chips break off rather than forming ribbons. The petal shedding is probably a consequence of the more brittle alloy rather than any deliberate design feature. All I know is that my experience with our bullets and that of our customers is that even the light for caliber bullets cause the animals to either drop dead or not go more than 25-50 yds if they get hit in the mid chest broad side. All lead core bullets designed to expand, mushroom. All you have to do is try our bullets on game and you will see how quickly they fall dead. Look on the video I posted on FB showing a bull Elk hit at 400+ yds with a 7mm BD2 bullet. Look on the George Fournier page then tell us what you think. Also read the top post there. Guys at Jarret rifles did single shot kills on 2 Cape Buffs and a Hippo using our 300 gr .373 BD2. They also show a recovered bullet.

So if I'm reading this right, you did no testing to come up with your design? Or didn't test a shedding design, to see which performed better? So then how do you know a shedding design isn't better? I'm not saying it is one way or the other. I just wondered if you tested both designs and the outcome of your tests.

As far as you saying I should test it. Yeah right. Your the bullet manufacturer who said to ask any questions about your bullets. Which I did. Guess that's your answer. Thanks for finally answering it.

 

[HARPERC]

The published min impact velocities has been set by Hammer. I've read some of their threads where they blamed tumbling on impact velocities or twist.

Blame? One of my first experiences with Hammer's (although I've seen it long before Hammer was a concept) was my .375. I ordered it with a 1-10", and didn't get it. Since then actually measuring has shown this is not unusual from even custom barrel makers.

Most manufactures are listing this at present.

Pictures are from the same rifle when adequate twist is not maintained.

 

[Northkill]

Well, to be fair, now I'm wondering if Hammer tested an expanding design. I guess one way to look at this is to assume they each have tested and experienced the results of the competing design in competitor projectiles, found some weaknesses, and set out to improve on the weaknesses in their respective design paths.

 

[ButterBean]

Well, to be fair, now I'm wondering if Hammer tested an expanding design.

 

[nralifer]

The ethical long range hunter, even though he knows he can hit an animal that is at a bad angle--or any other less than optimal condition--will pass up that shot. When you factor this out of the equation, I dare say any premium bullet's performance increases exponentially.

Not sure what you are implying, but for years most gun writers frowned on quartering shots because and very high MVs as lead core bullets are soft snd would not penetrate well. Through personal experience the quartering shot through the chest with our bullets is extremely lethal. Penetration of these bullets exceed 30" for the 150 gr 308 BD2 and is even greater for the heavier ones. I, a have seen complete longitudinal pass through a Bush Pig that measured 32" from the point of impact. Additionally, I know 2 of our customers have killed Elk and Moose with what's known as a Texas heart shot. Although I don't recommend the latter, quartering chest shots are clearly very rapidly lethal.

 

[Northkill]

You needed a good laugh, eh?

 

[ButterBean]

You needed a good laugh, eh?

Yes Sir I did and I thank you

 

[Northkill]

Blame? One of my first experiences with Hammer's (although I've seen it long before Hammer was a concept) was my .375. I ordered it with a 1-10", and didn't get it. Since then actually measuring has shown this is not unusual from even custom barrel makers.

Most manufactures are listing this at present. View attachment 493727View attachment 493729

Pictures are from the same rifle when adequate twist is not maintained.

All bullets do funny things sometimes. Failure is so subjective that its often applied in an unfair way. Hammer has benefited from legitimate input along the way. What makes it hard for them, as well as any other manufacturer, is when folks post "failures" without being transparent about the input factors. Getting all defensive when pertinent questions are raised and calling that "blame" or "attacking" only raises more questions about the credibility of the claim of "failure". I don't care what bullet it is. I've pushed monos to "failure" with high-velocity impacts, but it's not hard for me to understand I'm working them beyond their design parameters. It would be poor character for me to use my experience to undermine the brand as a result. What I will do is honestly warn someone considering an application for that projo in a velocity bracket that I've proven it'll create some problems. However, it might be the "perfect" projo for a lower-velocity bracket.

 

[Huntnpack]

 

[Petey308]

All bullets do funny things sometimes. Failure is so subjective that its often applied in an unfair way. Hammer has benefited from legitimate input along the way. What makes it hard for them, as well as any other manufacturer, is when folks post "failures" without being transparent about the input factors. Getting all defensive when pertinent questions are raised and calling that "blame" or "attacking" only raises more questions about the credibility of the claim of "failure". I don't care what bullet it is. I've pushed monos to "failure" with high-velocity impacts, but it's not hard for me to understand I'm working them beyond their design parameters. It would be poor character for me to use my experience to undermine the brand as a result. What I will do is honestly warn someone considering an application for that projo in a velocity bracket that I've proven it'll create some problems. However, it might be the "perfect" projo for a lower-velocity bracket.

Hmmm….. weird….

 

[Northkill]

Sure was.

 

[Petey308]

Seems to be a lot of this going on

 

[xsn10s]

I haven't found anyone more transparent than @ButterBean.

Meaning he showed us his, do we get to see yours?

Snake River Sportman's range is the organized range I belong to. but i do most of my long range out on BLM lands. The organized range has steel out to 800 yards. But when no one else is there it's set up to shoot out to around 1230 yards on steel. When I want to shoot farther say a mile I go out to blm, which surrounds the house. Here's a picture of a 2.72L bottle of Tide I think at 1110 yards. I honestly can't remember if it's 1213 or 1110 yards so we'll say 1110 yards. The two in the center are 308 Win 168 CC 2nd's using TAC. the other two was a new load using 168 ELDM.