Shane Lindsey
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2010
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Bore Tech Eliminator
- Thread starter Seabeeken
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Laguna Freak
Well-Known Member
Well, pretty much everything is known by the state of Commifornia to be carcinogenic, even boolits
I agree . I've been farming and living in a farming community over 40 years . We've all used Roundup. I don't know one farmer who has had Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma. I've known a couple of people who had it ,but they weren't farmers.
Seabeeken
Well-Known Member
I worked in the plant in Baltimore where agent orange was made before it was farmed out to germany. Nasty area around there
pacowboy
Well-Known Member
Yeah. I tried. My wife say "Oh hell no" lmao
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I worked in a chemical plant for almost 40 years. They call this area cancer alley. Funny thing though the folks who work in the plants and have the most exposure aren't getting cancer. The people in the surrounding areas who smoke eat high fat diets and do not have as much access to health care do. Hmmm.
Trust me as a recovering Kaliphornia expat - Arnold was never going to right the ship. He was married to a Kennedy. He never stood a chance. I still voted for him all the while knowing it was hopeless. And after that - - we all know what happened.
MarkInPA
Well-Known Member
I agree. Just listening to everyone's perspectives I got to believe that the most rational conclusion is somewhere in the middle. No doubt about it that some of the chemicals are down right nasty and it is wise to do what is reasonable to protect ourselves. It also stands to reason that if we are going to have anything that is effective for the task at hand, then we are going to have to use products that have the potential to be harmful. At least in large quantities and used often. I think our actions should be ruled by common sense.
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MarkInPA
Well-Known Member
Bore scopes are amazing for telling the real truth about how dirty or clean our bores are. It was a real eye opener for myself. I found that Bore Tech eliminator did not completely eliminate all the copper fouling. It wasn't until I used Brownells JB bore cleaner that I got it down to what I would consider clean. I only used this on a rifle that the accuracy went south on. Since using JB, the accuracy has returned some but, I am still in the process of doing new load development for it. I wouldn't recommend using the JB on a regular basis but only if you have problem child that needs taken care of. I seem to be having good results with the Boretech stuff. I use the Eliminator, Carbon Remover, and the Copper Remover. Mostly the Eliminator and then break out the carbon and copper remover on a as needed basis. This stuff is supposed to be ammonia free which we all know is supposed to be bad on our bores. I've often used Kroil at the end as a protective oil and we all probably know how bad that stuff is supposed to be for us.
Do a search on Ed's Red which will not disappoint, in performance or price.
The only things hoppes#9 is good for is it's smell and when mixed 50/50 with stp makes a good case lube. Heck hoppes was reformulated many yrs ago(thanks California) and is not even as effective as it was originally. But the smell is just pure nostalgia of my granpas guns and gun cabinet. I would have a rag with it in my gun room just for the smell . LOL
The only old school cleaners that come remotely close to the top modern copper cleaners are the ones with high ammonia. Not one foaming cleaner I have ever done a copper dissolution testing on has ever been a great preformer. See for yourself how well a cleaner dissolves copper. Take some small caliber light (cheaper) mono copper bullets, weigh and then put in a glass cup and completely submerge in whatever solution you choose. Pull at various intervals wash dry and inspect then weigh. Take a pic and record the weight. Put back in and continue for 24hrs checking at evet increasing time intervals. I think you will see quickly why produces like boretech Cu+2 and KG-12 have such great reps and all the old timers used heavy ammonia based cleaners butcher bore shine Montana Extreme etc...
If a cleaner can not at the very least severely etch the surface of the copper bullet there is no way its dissolving any copper in just a few minutes or even a couple hours. Some compounds can remove some copper etc by dislodging the particles much like a penetrating oil breaks loose a rusted joint but that will never get out the imbedded copper to bare steel. Likely thru capillary action it seeps hetween the copper and bore micro surface.
I have done these tests over the years since at least 2k. Have a bunch of small gs custom 80 gr turned copper bullets I use.
No doubt CLR works but it also absolutely will etch the bore. I have seen it first hand, not to mention videos of match SS barrel stubs put half submerged in the solution. You sure do not want to get a drop into the action or threads etc that is not cleaned off or you'll learn what the military maintenance personnel did about simple green and aluminum rivets of the chinhooks where it caused a catastrophic failure due to embrittlement resulting in a crash.
CLR when it contacts compounds it react, the gluconic and lactic acid combo forms hydrogen sulfides which reacts with the moisture in the solution or even just the air and forms sulfuric acid which settles on the bore surface. I think most understand how even SS steel alloys react to sulfuric acid. Look up the reaction for yourself and confirm it.
This is photo over on the hide of just 15 mins in the bore. Credit SH member" Downhillfromhere" photo.
Here is the video of a SS match barrel stub from Winning in the Wind youtube channel
So yes I know you can get away with it where you may not visually see the difference but you notice how in the video he speaks of off gassing as the reason to keep the lid cracked. What do you think is causing that volume of off gassing on an otherwise clean never shot barrel stub? It's reacting with the actual metal alloy and the air. That is immediate it's just very minor and likely is a small addition to the effdcts of firing.
Can it be used with great results? Sure it works great. Are you taking a risk that could permanently damage your reviever or barrel? Absolutely. If your pulling barrels at 1k like certain top rank f class/br shooters it maybe of little consequence if you never leave it more more than a few minutes. But understand from the second it touches that bore its "off gassing" creating much more steel alloy etching acids. It's the oxidation surface layer of chromium ....chromium oxide (Cr2O3) that protects SS from oxidation much as aluminum oxidizes with O2 contact.
So just like simple green and aluminum cleaning yes it's effective and does a great job if you can 100% be sure you get every bit washed off so can CLR be used to clean stubborn carbon rings. At the cost of match grade barrels/receivers not to mention the gunsmith chambering threading services (combined is about $1k to rebarrel) it's something I make it a choice of last resort. I would never use it on any gun that had blued metal I wanted to keep intact as just a drop or tiny spray droplet will etch the bluing in no time.
I know it works and works well for people that have used it for yrs. Just understand the risk profile and take precautions accordingly if you choose to use it. But those that state without reservations that it will not hurt the barrel defies science/ basic organic chemistry. You can see it with your own eyes.
The only old school cleaners that come remotely close to the top modern copper cleaners are the ones with high ammonia. Not one foaming cleaner I have ever done a copper dissolution testing on has ever been a great preformer. See for yourself how well a cleaner dissolves copper. Take some small caliber light (cheaper) mono copper bullets, weigh and then put in a glass cup and completely submerge in whatever solution you choose. Pull at various intervals wash dry and inspect then weigh. Take a pic and record the weight. Put back in and continue for 24hrs checking at evet increasing time intervals. I think you will see quickly why produces like boretech Cu+2 and KG-12 have such great reps and all the old timers used heavy ammonia based cleaners butcher bore shine Montana Extreme etc...
If a cleaner can not at the very least severely etch the surface of the copper bullet there is no way its dissolving any copper in just a few minutes or even a couple hours. Some compounds can remove some copper etc by dislodging the particles much like a penetrating oil breaks loose a rusted joint but that will never get out the imbedded copper to bare steel. Likely thru capillary action it seeps hetween the copper and bore micro surface.
I have done these tests over the years since at least 2k. Have a bunch of small gs custom 80 gr turned copper bullets I use.
No doubt CLR works but it also absolutely will etch the bore. I have seen it first hand, not to mention videos of match SS barrel stubs put half submerged in the solution. You sure do not want to get a drop into the action or threads etc that is not cleaned off or you'll learn what the military maintenance personnel did about simple green and aluminum rivets of the chinhooks where it caused a catastrophic failure due to embrittlement resulting in a crash.
CLR when it contacts compounds it react, the gluconic and lactic acid combo forms hydrogen sulfides which reacts with the moisture in the solution or even just the air and forms sulfuric acid which settles on the bore surface. I think most understand how even SS steel alloys react to sulfuric acid. Look up the reaction for yourself and confirm it.
This is photo over on the hide of just 15 mins in the bore. Credit SH member" Downhillfromhere" photo.
Here is the video of a SS match barrel stub from Winning in the Wind youtube channel
So yes I know you can get away with it where you may not visually see the difference but you notice how in the video he speaks of off gassing as the reason to keep the lid cracked. What do you think is causing that volume of off gassing on an otherwise clean never shot barrel stub? It's reacting with the actual metal alloy and the air. That is immediate it's just very minor and likely is a small addition to the effdcts of firing.
Can it be used with great results? Sure it works great. Are you taking a risk that could permanently damage your reviever or barrel? Absolutely. If your pulling barrels at 1k like certain top rank f class/br shooters it maybe of little consequence if you never leave it more more than a few minutes. But understand from the second it touches that bore its "off gassing" creating much more steel alloy etching acids. It's the oxidation surface layer of chromium ....chromium oxide (Cr2O3) that protects SS from oxidation much as aluminum oxidizes with O2 contact.
So just like simple green and aluminum cleaning yes it's effective and does a great job if you can 100% be sure you get every bit washed off so can CLR be used to clean stubborn carbon rings. At the cost of match grade barrels/receivers not to mention the gunsmith chambering threading services (combined is about $1k to rebarrel) it's something I make it a choice of last resort. I would never use it on any gun that had blued metal I wanted to keep intact as just a drop or tiny spray droplet will etch the bluing in no time.
I know it works and works well for people that have used it for yrs. Just understand the risk profile and take precautions accordingly if you choose to use it. But those that state without reservations that it will not hurt the barrel defies science/ basic organic chemistry. You can see it with your own eyes.
MarkInPA
Well-Known Member
Tell me more about the Simple Green and aluminum. I don't think I ever heard anything about that. I'm just curious. You say it caused a Chinhook to crash?
But your post just illustrates that we do need to think about what we are using to clean our stuff with. Everything is not a good choice.
But your post just illustrates that we do need to think about what we are using to clean our stuff with. Everything is not a good choice.
Simple green had a great rep as a engine cleaner. Was fabulous as a decrease but without the high crossive nature of tour typical industrial cleaners of tge 80s-90s. I personally had used it since m8d 80s as even a teen for detailing / cleaning engines, undercarriage, tile floors, etc.. It made its way into the military use. (Non issued) as a great way to clean to grim off aircraft etc. It worked fine as long as it ws throughly rinsed off which normally might not be an issue. But I was using it on steel bodied cars etc where alum was mostly valve covers and dress up parts. Still it orginally had no warning about an issue ax I do not think even the company knew of these issues.
In the case of aircraft frames the body is attached with thousands of rivets made of aluminum. The simple green seeped down into the rivet area and unknowingly could not ge rinsed out. The solution caused what is known as "hydrogen embrittlement". The internal parts of the rivets were compromised by this embrittlement. Much in the same way sulfuric acid can effect the sulfur content in steel amount other things. This severely compromised the strength of the rivets. This until there was a failure which added stress to other rivets also weakened. The parts failed and the chinhook went down. After that you started seeing warning labels on simple green for not sare for aluminum and it was banned by Mil.
I think if you do a search for simple green chinhook crash it .......oh never mind here ya go:
An educational website containing extensive information on the Boeing CH-47 Chinook helicopter.
Boeing Chinook helicopter maintenance issues - aircraft cleaners.
www.chinook-helicopter.com
Mitigating Aircraft Chemical Damage
FAA regulations require aircraft maintenance personnel to use only approved chemicals. When a failure to meet this legislative requirement can have serious consequences to aircraft and personnel safety, how can a maintenance technician be sure they comply? Technical data sheets and compliance...
It is not remotely as caustic as CLR.. I litterally used it on everything I could find it cleaned well. It also has a good scent compared to all the other cleaners of the time.
We use simple green daily to clean rotor components and gearbox assemblies at induction for overhaul.
As far the above information, not arguing one way or the other, I just know there are no shortcuts.
As far the above information, not arguing one way or the other, I just know there are no shortcuts.
