Berger HUNTING Bullets

[Pdvdh]

Cross your fingers for the ELD-X.

Yes, Hornady's recently announced ELD-X bullets will offer another option for those preferring an alternative to the target style hpbt cup and core bullets.

The press releases from Hornady sound good (to be expected). More encouraging are some editors'/writers' articles after witnessing Hornady-sponsored shooting demonstrations with these new bullets. And the ballistic gel videos are impressive. Hornady states reliable expansion down to 1600fps based on their testing, and the BC values should be dead nutz on; field proven by Doppler radar.

10-4 on fingers crossed. Hornady is setting hopes high.

 

[TXAoudadKlr]

I put my load development for the 230Gr Berger on the back burner for I'm still very skeptical in their consistency in terminal performance. Perhaps Berger should follow Sierra and look into something similar to their tipped Match King.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I have had failures with Hornady SST, Barnes TSX, Nosler Accubonds, and 1 Berger.

All of them required tracking, EXCEPT the Berger. The deer shot with the Berger never took a step, and hit the ground dead. Entrance & exit were bullet size (7mm), and when we picked up the deer it literally left a couple of drops of blood on the ground. The heart was popped like a balloon. Even when the bullet failed to open, it still did its job perfectly as one of the quickest and cleanest kills I've made to date.

Even if the bullet fails (which all brands will at some point), good shot placement is still the most important factor.

+1

Ive never seen any bullet perform 100% predictable all the time in different shots, and ive seen a few animals really put up an impressive fight after well placed shots with bullets that did perform.

 

[ShootnMathews]

+1

Ive never seen any bullet perform 100% predictable all the time in different shots, and ive seen a few animals really put up an impressive fight after well placed shots with bullets that did perform.

I've shot a lot of animals with Nosler Ballistic tips with many calibers and so far I've never had a failure or lost animal with them.(crossing fingers that after saying something, I don't have a failure this season) they may not have the best Bc's on the market or be the most accurate but I can usually easily get them under 3/4 MOA. Usually 1/2 MOA is not a problem. And they are killers. As I said before though I have had some deer run a long ways that just didn't know they were dead. I don't know how they do it, but it happens.

 

[EdWalton]

Years ago when dad was still hunting, we used ballistic tips. Dad didn't take shots past three hundred yards, but his 30-06 always dropped the deer where they stood, we always would take shoots farther but me and my brothers 300 win weren't near as consistent.

I had one extreme example, when I shot a large buck (for us that's less than 200 lbs.) at less than thirty yards. In no way was it an extreme angle, it was a good hit behind the shoulder, which did drop it. But there was no exit wound, no blood on the ground, the empty jacket had vectored right and slammed in to the opposite rear thigh.

My near useless two cents: The bullets velocity when it arrives at the animal can be too high, which may not give the expected results.

 

[WildRose]

Years ago when dad was still hunting, we used ballistic tips. Dad didn't take shots past three hundred yards, but his 30-06 always dropped the deer where they stood, we always would take shoots farther but me and my brothers 300 win weren't near as consistent.

I had one extreme example, when I shot a large buck (for us that's less than 200 lbs.) at less than thirty yards. In no way was it an extreme angle, it was a good hit behind the shoulder, which did drop it. But there was no exit wound, no blood on the ground, the empty jacket had vectored right and slammed in to the opposite rear thigh.

My near useless two cents: The bullets velocity when it arrives at the animal can be too high, which may not give the expected results.

Too high or Too Low can cause a lot of problems.

Hopefully this new design will give us a bullet that performs well at both extremes and in the midrange.

 

[bigngreen]

One thing I've noticed in a lot of the bullet fail threads is guys who have issues with a bullet will continue having issues with them, regardless of bullet if they suck for you change but it does not necessarily mean it's a bullet issue!
It took me a number of years to shoot a Berger type bullet without a back up Accubond or TTSX but in the hundreds of kills I've seen with the Bergers or similar bullet, I've seen exactly ONE that could be called a fail and that was a 210 not opening but still recovered the deer. I have NEVER seen one open early, they all have been cal holes in and almost no blood shot on the entry.
I shoot game to kill them fast and recover every animal I pull the trigger on and being that I mostly hunt elk any bullet that causes me to have to drag elk up out of worse spot than I first hit them get dropped very fast!! For my shot placement and ranges I definitely get way better results from a Berger or similar bullet than I have with anything else, that does not mean somebody who uses a different shot placement or bullet weight than I do will have the same results this does not mean it's a bad bullet though!!

 

[ShootnMathews]

Years ago when dad was still hunting, we used ballistic tips. Dad didn't take shots past three hundred yards, but his 30-06 always dropped the deer where they stood, we always would take shoots farther but me and my brothers 300 win weren't near as consistent.

I had one extreme example, when I shot a large buck (for us that's less than 200 lbs.) at less than thirty yards. In no way was it an extreme angle, it was a good hit behind the shoulder, which did drop it. But there was no exit wound, no blood on the ground, the empty jacket had vectored right and slammed in to the opposite rear thigh.

My near useless two cents: The bullets velocity when it arrives at the animal can be too high, which may not give the expected results.

Ballistic tips do seem to expend all their energy in the animal. I don't always have an exit wound. I always shoot for a double lung shot, and on all the deer I've shot, ones with exits and one without, the lungs are completely destroyed inside. That 9 point last year with my 243 is the only deer I've had run out of sight with BT bullets. Most fall straight down, and the rest that do run usually don't make it past 30 yards. My buddy doesn't always get exits with his 7RUM and 140 BT's.

Now I have heard horror stories about BT bullets and shoulder shots. Apparently they do not penetrate well on bone. I think with all bullets, knowing your bullet and it's characteristics to help you with proper placement are key. Some bullets kill better by shoulder shots. Some bullets do better with soft tissue only. I shoot lots of bullets at paper but on game I use nearly exclusively Nosler BT bullets. Out to 800 yards the have worked flawlessly for me so far. Just sharing my personal experience here. I tried the bergers and wasn't totally sold on them. The second deer I shot with them had a small hole in, small hole out, and no blood trail. It also ran out of sight. I followed the tore up leaves for a ways and then continued on that path until I came upon it. There was no blood on the animal anywhere. Looked as if I scared it to death until I field dressed it. Then you could see the pencil holes. 6.5mm 140 vldh at 3000+.

But as someone said, sometimes you just can't explain things. About 5 years ago just for the H*** of it, I shot a 10 point with a 50 cal. Broadside, double lung shot. I expected to nearly blow it in half. But it ran completely out of sight. Where the deer was standing on the shot, there was a LOT of blood, then NO blood trail. I literally found the deer by walking and glassing until I found it piled up against a dead tree. It went over 100 yards. How? I have no idea.

 

[Swamplord]

I've always considered Berger bullets as target bullets and shied away from using them on game for years..... All that changed recently , My best hunting load for my 338 Edge was the 300 gr Accubond and it worked great on moose and black bear from 35 yards to 450 yards but I always had concerns about this super tough bullet opening up at longer range,
Almost everyone who shoots the 338 Edge raves madly about the Berger 300 gr OTM / H1000 combo so I spent some time and burned up a box with no accuracy to be found ..... I blamed the bullets then the Obermeyer bbl and gave up on Berger ..... Then again I was swayed by the reports of Bergers blasting game at long range and I desperately wanted the bc ...... So I got some 300 gr Hunters and a new jug of H1000, (the other powder was a couple old cans I had from the early 2000's that I tried in my 300 RUM ) Looking at my old shooting/ loading notes and data reminded me that I could not get the H 1000 to shoot worth a rat arse in the 300 Rum nor the 7.82 Warbird .... Reloder 25 shot lights out with same bullets in both rifles ......
That was my problem, the old lot of powder ......switching to the brand new lot of powder I had the Bergers shooting nice and neat 1/2" triangular groups and the point of impact was the same as with the 300 gr Accubonds, I was stoked ! Had my close range and long range loads figured out finally !

In Sept of 2014 I was set up where I could take a shot at 6-800 yards in a series of connecting swamps where I had spotted a large bull a week before, after spending half a day of glassing with no sign of moose I decided to move down to the swamps and do some calling , I'd forgotten that the top round in my Seekins mag was the Berger round with four Accubonds beneath, hunting solo 50 miles into bear infested country I felt the Accubonds were better in the event I met a bear with bad manners . Called in a decent 52 1/2" 3x2 brow tine bull in right at 100 yards, It being the second to last night of the season I decided to take him, pulled the bolt back and pushed that Berger load in and shot the bull with a classic "just behind the shoulder, top of the heart/ bottom of lungs" not realizing that I'd forgotten to switch that round out for the close in / calling set up ....

I witnessed one of the loudest bullet impacts and most dramatic kills out of the 30+ bulls I'd taken over the years, death was instantaneous and the bull was slammed to the dirt stone cold dead, I recovered the bullet jacket against the hide on the other side, While it didn't penetrate the hide It passed through the entire body of the bull, I recovered pieces of jacket and lead in the heart and all the way through the wound channel to the hide,

This year Sept 2015 , I purposely had a 300 gr Berger Elite Hunter bullet on top in the mag followed by the four Accubond loads for mean Mr. Brown ........ I called in and shot my bull at 62 yards and again was rewarded with an explosion of an impact, the bull was tired of hanging around and was getting suspicious, as he headed for cover he stepped into a mudhole as I fired, the bullet impact was high, right under the back , his lungs were wiped out and the force of the bullet impact /energy or whatever the hell happened broke his back also ! He did a rodeo horse kick and was spun around and fell facing in the opposite direction, death was immediate ..... I recovered the bullet jacket and a bit of lead still in it against the hide , see photo of bullet

Two animals down at close range is hardly scientific research but I will continue to use the 300 gr 338 cal Berger Elite Hunters for moose , with the Accubonds as back up of course, just 'cause it feels good that way ......

Now if that new Hornady ELD Match shoots as well as the Bergers ? ........ But then again 300 gr at 2900 fps is hard to walk away from ......

My apologies for the long winded post, but I had to tell somebody y'know !

 

[Pdvdh]

Swamplord,
Your description of the 2014 bull moose kill is impressive for sure. Alaskan-sized bull moose don't drop lights out with body hits to the ribs. Not normally. I've never seen one drop like that with a shot to the ribs.

The 2015 moose was spined. Those hits often generate acrobatics out of a moose. Much smaller caliber, lighter weight bullets will cause the same spectacular displays, in my experience. I've seen more than a few spined, and the moose can make some impressive moves just prior to smacking the ground. I've seen a couple complete backward flips with the moose ending up flat on their backs. I know of one moose shot with a .243 that dropped like hit by lightning from a spine shot - something like a 90gr factory load.

I have high confidence that the heavy for caliber Berger style bullets with their relatively thin jackets can kill very large game animals when the bullet only has to penetrate the rib cage to get to the vitals. With ideal broadside shots to the ribs, which is very often available in long range hunting, I think these bullets can kill visciously - provided they expand. I haven't become comfortable with them - personally - with our very large Alaskan moose and brown bear, where a frontal shot, or frontal quartering shot might need to be taken. Especially close quarters shots where impact velocity will be quite high. At long range and reduced impact velocity, these bullets would be more apt to penetrate thru the 12-18" of hide/muscle/bone necessary to penetrate thru moose or brown bear sized quarters - front or rear - prior to reaching vital organs.

And that brings me to the topic of menacing or charging bears or moose at very close range, requiring penetration thru the shoulders/brisket. The worst of all tests for a thin jacketed, soft lead core bullet, in my opinion. I'm not yet ready to bet my life on them, even though the .338 with 300 grains of copper clad lead is a pretty heavy payload. Mosts of my hunting is done with .308 caliber bullets. Less bullet mass, so I only carry controlled expansion bullets in my magazines for close quarters shots. I dump the shells in the magazine and load single shot style with my long range high BC frangible bullets for long range shots. I may never change that approach in my Alaska hunting, where some animals maul/kill the hunters - almost yearly. I'd rather have a controlled expansion bullet penetrate deeply on a frontal shot with a little less explosiveness, than risk life using a bullet that might not reach the vitals. That's how I currently roll.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the 300gr .338s on moose.

Let me know if you flatten a large Bull in his tracks with a close range frontal shot with the 300gr Elite Hunters. Or hear of anyone else doing the same...

 

[bigngreen]

My buddy took his first Alaskan moose a couple months ago, frontal shot at 350 yards, 140 Berger hybrid from a 6.5-284, messed up both lungs but obviously didn't drop him but he could only manage a few steps before he locked his legs and stood there. Second round caught him in the neck and dropped him dead. It was a closer shot and we found the bullet in typical mangled Berger style in the of side of the neck meat after it had gone through the spine.

 

[Pdvdh]

I think your large elk are a tougher animal, hang on to life more tenaciously, than our moose. This is having never shot an elk - solely from what I read. Lung shot moose often do what your buddies moose did. Run a short distance, stop, and then fall over after reasonably short period of time. Muscle shot moose can travel quite a long distance. Their blood supply is unending - commensurate with the large body size.

Alaskan moose have a lot more muscle to penetrate than elk with some shot presentations - a greater distance the bullet must travel before reaching vital organs. And muscle is muscle, no matter the animal's mental disposition.

Glad to hear all turned out well and the bullet was sufficient for your buddy on his moose hunt.

 

[ntrl_brn_rebel]

I appreciate all the comments, input, just a short update since my post-

This cow was shot the other day with a 7mm, 180 VLD at 240 yards. You are looking at the exit wound, placed just behind front shoulder, cow was picture perfect broadside and was hammered, like a clinic on exactly what to do...

Well the shot went through her, she didn't kick, flinge, nothing...appeared to be a miss, but one of the guys spotting was convinced he saw bullet hit behind shoulder..the other spotter convinced it was a miss and saw snow fly in background..I have been around to see hundreds of animals shot and I would have bet 500 dollars that it was a miss given her reaction..

Well no blood, again, (this means jack **** with bergers I have come to
find out) so we stayed on her in the fresh snow, two hundred yards and not a drop
of blood, finally we see blood between tracks, like a mist of blood in snow, (blowing it out her nose) we stayed on it, she's dead, **** near 1/2 mile...

Seriously...my stomach turned, I don't know what kind of luck, or maybe I'm the most blessed guy ever to see this ****.....I honestly want guys to ask themselves has a situation like what I described happened, convinced of a miss, I mean you saw dust fly and no reaction...would you look for 3/400 yards for a little mist of blood???

They are garbage, seriously...I hope guys like me a couple years ago stop
Before they hit the point it took me..
I think a .22 would be more effective...and some guys will still say it isn't the bullet...good luck I say, and just remember this warning...I wish I would have heeded the warnings.

 

[bigngreen]

Do you have a picture of the lungs?