Bear spray vs Bullets

[FEENIX]

It's funny how this subject always draws out a lot of "passionate "discussion".

When I first got to Montana many years ago, I bought a Ruger Redhawk 41 (beautiful gun, loved it) for the express purpose of bear defense while fishing in Griz country, usually the Dearborn River on the Eastern Front. I lived n Great Falls then. Walking through thick willows in Griz country can be a little un-nerving. The 41 made me feel better.

The more time I spent in bear country, the less nervous I became, and over the years I spent a good deal of time in bear country, especially in the Beartooths, Absorkees, Gallatins and Madison ranges after I moved to Bozeman. Most of the time I did not carry gun or spray and had numerous encounters with bears usually at a comfortable distance, especially when fishing in the Park (Yellowstone).

One interesting encounter happened while I was fishing, hiking up stream on the Yellowstone from Tower Falls in YNP back country. Wasn't carrying anything but my fly rod and my head was down on the trail when all of a sudden I saw a dark blur go by me on my left. It was about a 200 lb blackie in full gallop that passed about 20' to my left. I have fished slough creek quite a bit and about half my trips up there I see bears, sometimes multiple. After a while I decided maybe I should carry some protection as the odds might catch up to me someday. (And BTW, I have had as many or more bear encounters in my back yard as I have in the back country.)

Well back then you could not carry firearms in the park so I got some bear spray. Ok, so reading through this thread so far I have not noticed anyone making the distinction between different types of spray. There is a huge difference. UDAP and Counter Assault are more of a vapor than a spray and they get into your breathing passages and lungs, and mess you up big time. I know this because I tested UDAP myself once. On a calm day I squeezed the trigger for less than half a second and in less than half a second it shot out a burst that went about 30' and was about 6-8' in diameter. Just then a very light breeze started blowing it back in my direction so I retreated until the orange cloud disappeared. Then I walked back to the spot where I originally discharged it. Although I no longer saw any sign of it, I started choking and gagging and became nauseous. I felt very crappy for a couple of hours. These sprays are totally different than the sprays that are basically skin irritants. For any of you that have been through tear gas training (I have), I would say it was similar to that but a good bit more intense. A few years ago, some high school kid thought he would have some fun and discharged some UDAP into the bleachers of a football game. Several people were taken the the ER of the hospital.

So I know a few of you boys posting to this thread and I'll make a friendly little wager with anyone who wants to take me up. My $1000 to your $100, you stand 20' away from me and on the word "go", I start spraying and if you can get to me and grab the can in my hand you get my $1K, if not, I get your $100.

I think my Montana, Wyoming and Idaho buddies will agree that the vast majority of bear attacks in this country happen to hunters, usually bow hunters calling elk. Bottom line, being in bear country is probably a lot less dangerous than driving home from a New Years Eve party dodging drunks.

From one Montanan to another, I know better NOT to take that wager.

Ed

 

[Timber338]

So I know a few of you boys posting to this thread and I'll make a friendly little wager with anyone who wants to take me up. My $1000 to your $100, you stand 20' away from me and on the word "go", I start spraying and if you can get to me and grab the can in my hand you get my $1K, if not, I get your $100.

I think my Montana, Wyoming and Idaho buddies will agree that the vast majority of bear attacks in this country happen to hunters, usually bow hunters calling elk. Bottom line, being in bear country is probably a lot less dangerous than driving home from a New Years Eve party dodging drunks.

Out of curiosity, would you make this same bet with Griz right before stepping between her and her cubs? What about with a black bear?

I have zero experience with bear spray, I own a can of it but it's just sits in my garage. So I'm' not doubting how potent the stuff is. I'm just more comfortable with my 44.

And you are right on that big cities are much more dangerous than the back country. I would bet that pretty much all of us feel more safe in the mountains than in any big city. I know I do.

 

[Pdvdh]

The dud can of bear spray was UDAP. Which might explain the company owner's bear mauling...

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Out of curiosity, would you make this same bet with Griz right before stepping between her and her cubs? What about with a black bear?

Probably, if the bear had a 100 bucks Seriously, after my little test experience, I am very comfortable with the UDAP or Counter Assault type spray as long as I have time to use it which would be about the same as drawing a sidearm.

I have zero experience with bear spray, I own a can of it but it's just sits in my garage. So I'm' not doubting how potent the stuff is. I'm just more comfortable with my 44.

Very important to understand the difference between older types of spray and the more recently developed ones like UDAP. I would not waste my time with the older types or "self defense" types. You can go to jail if you use the UDAP type on humans. The type that you are "allowed" to use on humans is marginal at best.

If you feel better with your 44, that's great. I feel a little more comfortable with spray.

And you are right on that big cities are much more dangerous than the back country. I would bet that pretty much all of us feel more safe in the mountains than in any big city. I know I do.

Not so much big cities as just be on the road at certain times during certain holidays when there's been a lot of drinking going on. But yeah, urban environments can be risky.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

So this was the brand of bear spray with the picture of the company owner bloodied from head to toe. Now I know how he got that way. **** bear spray...

The man who you are referring to is Mark Matheny of all places, right here in Bozeman. The spray that was used was for human deterent... and it did work. That's hy he's still alive. As a result of the attack, Mark went on to develop UDAP specifically for bear defense.

Here's his story.

A Grizzly Bear Attack, The Story of Mark Matheny President UDAP Pepper Power

BTW, I do not know Mark Matheny nor do I have any marketing interest in UDAP or any bear spray products.

 

[Pdvdh]

The "dud" can of bear spray I'm referring to was branded UDAP. And the incident I describe occurred within the last two years. Certainly UDAP's improved line of product. Doesn't matter how effective the contents in the can are, if they remain inside the can. Strictly the facts, and nothing but the facts.

 

[HARPERC]

If you feel better with your 44, that's great. I feel a little more comfortable with spray.

Really at the heart of it that's my issue. Discuss the limitations, and allow folks to use what they want.

 

[bigngreen]

My issue with spray as my only line of defense is if a bear or myself escalate the situation to the point where someone is going to defend their life you can not match the bears intent, your SOL at that point and all you got is curling up in a ball and hope it's a fast end or he gets bored with you before you bleed out.

 

[ATH]

I typically don't participate in these thread. Good to see this one way more civil than most.

Both have trade-offs. I'm personally more comfortable with a magnum handgun so that's what I use. If nothing else I shoot the gun an awful lot and it is second nature, no conscious effort required as the bear tries to remove my scalp.

I use 41 and 44 Mags. IMHO a charing bear is a tough target and I would not trust myself to adequately control a larger gun. Plus these calibers have sufficient penetration to do the job. Bigger is not always better.

Why a sidearm when I am carrying a long range rifle? Because bears move fast and I don't know about you, but my rifle is often slung on my shoulder or in my backpack scabbard. Kind of tough to get in play, a handgun on the belt is much faster.

I use a Taurus Titanium (41Mag) and a SW329 (44Mag). Both guns are so light you will forget you have them on your belt; no reason to say won't carry due to weight. I have hunted with people carrying similarly sized steel guns....we backpack hunt hard, the steel guns have typically been left behind on the first trip back to the truck.

 

[Timber338]

Probably, if the bear had a 100 bucks

hahahaha. that's awesome.

Seriously, after my little test experience, I am very comfortable with the UDAP or Counter Assault type spray as long as I have time to use it which would be about the same as drawing a sidearm.



Very important to understand the difference between older types of spray and the more recently developed ones like UDAP. I would not waste my time with the older types or "self defense" types. You can go to jail if you use the UDAP type on humans. The type that you are "allowed" to use on humans is marginal at best.

If you feel better with your 44, that's great. I feel a little more comfortable with spray.

As ATH pointed out this thread has remained very civil. To that point I very much appreciate your honest answers here along with your knowledge on UDAP... this really is great information that I'm going to use. My wife is not a gun person, so I am going to make a point to make sure she has UDAP when we're out backpacking and camping. When I get home I'm going to check to see what spray I currently have. Also curious to see if there is an expiration date.

Either way I think the info here on UDAP is enough to justify it's credibility as a bear deterrent.

 

[sp6x6]

Big n green, My marine son has been gased or peped about 3 times, Hes just about fast enough and crazy to take you up,I dont dare show him this post. Guys were heaving there guts thats for sure

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Big n green, My marine son has been gased or peped about 3 times, Hes just about fast enough and crazy to take you up,I dont dare show him this post. Guys were heaving there guts thats for sure

Being a young marine he might just do it ...and no holding your breath

 

[MontanaRifleman]

There were some accurate things said about spray in previous posts but they applied to the older types of sprays that were basically skin irritants. Totlly different animals than some of the newer devolved products that are actually illegal to use on humans.

So I just wanted to jump and clear that up so we have good current info to work with.

Buy a can and try it yourself, just don't have anything important planned for the rest of the day

 

[Pdvdh]

Family encounters persistant bear on Skilak Loop | Peninsula Clarion

I don't want to bump into this bear at close yardage, no matter what my defensive tool of choice. This is way early for a bear to be out & about, prowling for food. But this is one of our mildest winters on record.