Bear protection handguns?

[codyadams]

I've had Glocks fail. Mostly due to wearing out the recoil spring. After about 3-5k rounds the recoil springs get weak. So after the second time that happened I just replaced the springs at 3k rounds on my competition G23. On carry units I swapped out around 2700 rounds. Never had issues after that.

One of my guys in my department had a faulty striker I had to replace, a piece chipped out of it and it became unreliable. Somewhat unrelated, as it's the only time I had seen it.

 

[xsn10s]

One of my guys in my department had a faulty striker I had to replace, a piece chipped out of it and it became unreliable. Somewhat unrelated, as it's the only time I had seen it.

I had an extractor fail too. It was on the G23, but hey they are mechanical devices so they can fail. I'd still buy one for my personal protection. The only reason I'm leaning towards a S&W is I like the way they point better. And I want to shoot more than one brand of sidearm.

 

[Pdvdh]

I've got some packs of Black Cat fire crackers. Way more than 15 + one pops.

Way more effective than 15 + 1 in any 10mm scattergun. Lighter to pack around too! Better than both the big advantages quoted for the 10mm Autos.

 

[wilkup]

Prove it. I'm a very avid gun shooter, pistols to rifles and I spent a career in the Marine Corps and there is no way in hell that you can prove to me that you'll hit a bear with more than 2 or 3 rounds if it surprises you from the typical distance that most attacks happen at. Figure it out, most attacks happen with no more than 20 or 30 feet distance between the person and the bear, that's gives you no more than one second (grizzlies and black bears can run at 30 mph) from the time you know the bear is attacking and you turn to face it, aim, and get a killing shot off.

I don't think you guys really understand just how fast a bear attack happens. I'm not talking about some hunter that watches a bear for several minutes, has his gun drawn, and is aiming at the animal before it attacks. I'm talking about a real bear attack which usually means that as you walk along the first you know about a bear attacking is when you hear it crashing through the brush. More often than not you wont even clear leather before it's on you.

Coming on a little strong But you're also not wrong about the difficulty of clearing leather on a charging bear at close range.
What you describe was basically my experience, except the bear and I surprised each other, he wasn't stalking me for an attack.

 

[ButterBean]

Not pointed at any one specific individual here:
The reason people will pick on your 10mm 15+1 rounds and faster reloads idea is multifaceted.

Number one, you think you're going to shoot 15 rounds and reload. Statistically this is ridiculous, not impossible, ridiculous, not to mention, what makes you think round 14 is going to be your diamond in the rough when 1-13 didn't work.

It isn't a statistical probability, that's a big sticking point. I have 15 rounds, I can reload faster with my magazine... great. That's about as relevant as what battery your wife uses in her vibrator in the moment.

Spray and pray we call it, you can watch snow goose hunters dump extended mags of birdshot at thousands of birds hovering above them and hit only sky.

Spray and pray isn't a great plan, but it is a plan, it also can and has worked.

Next, your 220gr hardcast only has a .196 sectional density. This is not good, not an impossibility, but not good.

If we're shooting for statistical probability, a .196 sectional density, less power, and thinking you're dumping your mag/spray and pray, is far from ideal. It can work, possible, not ideal, there's better to be had.


Now, you may say, but I am not interested in a mag dump, or spray and pray, I carry a 10mm because it is as potent as I can handle with the level of precision I wish to see in the situation, I'm fine focusing on only the first shot, waiting for it to be right.

To which, I'd say, ok, I like it, I still don't like the .196 sectional density, I don't want to see it deflect on you, stop short when hitting bone or in bone, but ok, let's go track some bears, I can understand this.

A worthwhile pointing out is that in Africa, dangerous game is met with a .300+ sectional density, and the plus side of that being common, my 458 lott 500gr is .341.

Another point, if it is affordable to the person, it is common to see a prohunter backing up on dangerous game with a double rifle.

Two shots, now, that is two immediate shots (given recovery from recoil), you may fire 4 with your Glock 10mm in the same time, may fire 6, do you think any of them is wishing for your Glock in that situation.

It's quality of shot that wins the day, not number of shots. This of course doesn't always work, we're still human, and the universe is still the universe, unpredictability can be unpredictable.

So, don't worry if you can fire 15 rounds of 10mm in the same time it takes you to fire 4 rounds of 44 mag.

That 340 +p+ 44 mag round has a much much much better sectional density, just worry about putting one where it matters, you don't need the 4.

I'll take the one over the 15, in fact. (though it isn't about 1 exactly, it's about ensuring the precision is there for each shot, period, the lead, the sight, the trigger press, though your first round will be your best opportunity at a precision stoppage) Big problem with having 15 rounds is the panic that can come over people who then resort to spray and pray because it's there. A big sticking point for why many a kid has been taught to shoot animals, even birds, with a single shot. They are forced to make each shot count.

So, for the 10mm, the constant shouting of I have 15 rounds just screams of spray and pray, and that worries us, because it may cost you your life, and we care.
The .196 SD worries us, because it may come up short, and that may cost you your life and we care.
It worries us because it may also cost the life of the guy reading your posts, thinking YEA!, 15 rounds, yea, 220gr hardcast is powerful.

In that same shoe, it may work just fine, and still in that shoe, the definitive answer isn't out there to be had for us, so we must discuss and work through. **This may be doable, if someone in Alaska were to collect raw griz heads, secure them down, take a 10mm with 220gr hardcast, 9mm with 147gr hardcasts, 44 mag with xyz and so on. And methodically take shots from dozens of angles to see if they will consistently penetrate to the brain. Now, you can't use the same head, each hit affects the structure, not that every bear in nature will be perfect, but you'd need to pay attention to any possibility of bullet paths crossing given angle.
May be ok to shoot once through the top of the head, then another from the front, angled up slightly, say through top jaw and out through top back of head. Bullet paths not crossing until brain cavity.

Raw fresh skulls though, to maintain integrity of test. Can't shoot 10mm between the eyes, then do same with 9mm and claim the 9mm worked, the 10mm damaged the structure there and it may give false results.

You'd also likely do each angle multiple times, even with the same caliber and bullet, to ensure a higher degree of consistency and try and rule out statistical flukes.

I know that some have tried to do similar in one-off scenarios, but one off tests, without specific controls and parameters aren't really going to do it, if we truly want to know, know know, not about having an idea that it may work. Frozen heads, just the bare skull, dried skulls, boiled, etc... all of this will ruin the integrity of the results.

Anyways the goal here, higher statistical probability of success. That may change per person, but to a degree it should be pretty consistent.

Quality solid, higher sectional density, is going to equal higher probability of success with the bullet, which is an important part. (big enough caliber bonded expandable can do it too, but this isn't really pistol territory)
Practice, on your part, for accuracy and draw time, has to be there regardless caliber or number of shots.

For me, if I was watching 100 people stand on a firing line, a softball on a rope was swung toward each, and I saw 99 guys dumping mags at it, and one guy patiently waiting and hitting it with one shot each time.

I'll take the one guy and you can have the 99 others for your bear charge.

I like the idea of patience, giving yourself as much advantage as possible, it won't be easy, the situation never will be, but I like that at 10 feet my margin of error for misjudging lead is bigger, my margin for error for misjudging his speed is bigger (is he traveling 20mph, 25, 30, 35...), and at 10 feet, it's just flat out easier to hit that peach.

I'm also not discussing bears that are scared off, in these instances, bear spray, clapping, bells, a flare, warning shots, so on and on and on could work. The ultimate threat here doesn't take lethal means to end, this isn't really the discussion.

You want another burner of a question/thread:

Now, perhaps we should discuss what stopping round actually means, because there are rounds, that with near miss brain shots, have still incapacitated animals. Any round that hits the brain will work, therefore hitting the brain as a stipulation effectively nullifies the question. Therefore brain hits actually are to be removed, from this new discussion.
Taylor noted the 600 Nitro Express could knock an elephant out for up to half an hour with a near miss brain shot.
In several of Mark Sullivans DVDS we see him employ a 10ft rule on charges and he's still alive, regardless how much you may hate him, he puts his life behind that motto, wait til 10ft, now start firing, on charges.
I point him out though because in some of those charges, with his 577 NE and his 600 NE he shows that he missed brain, he discusses it, yet the animal was still incapacitated, allowing for a safe follow up.

So, there's another question that creeps in, would a 500 S&W bring enough power, bullet diameter, momentum, energy, and all of whatever can create this stoppage with a near miss brain shot.
Could it incapacitate a bear with a near miss brain shot?

If so, and, say the 44mag won't, that would be a massive factor to consider as well.

If not though, then the massive recoil doesn't have that payoff and a gun like that may be far worse, if a lesser recoiling gun with similar/better Sectional Densities/proper penetrating bullets can be had. It may, at that point, be nothing more than extra recoil and weight to use the 500. (though a case may be had at that point for reduced loads as well, they generally still beat 44 mags and certainly 10mms in energy, plus you get a larger bullet diameter and have some extremely high sectional density bullet choices.) I digress

Now Taylor was talking elephant, Sullivan was largely cape buffalo, some hippo, a bear does not smash heads like a cape buffalo may do, or a bighorn sheep or the like for that matter.

So it may be that a bear may actually be quite a bit easier to "knock out," or effectively knock out, perhaps...

Anyways:
This again, is another part of the conversation, and one that will most certainly never be truly solved. We'll only hear of anecdotal incidents. Seeing it, as in Mark Sullivans DVDs is a tremendous value. And while I respect that he lives his motto and truly has and does bet his life on it, I am still very up in the air on much of him, though only knowing what I see in his videos.

Bears over bait would perhaps be a good testing ground for this "knock out," but it would mean intentionally shooting to miss brain, this is an ethical issue for sure. A battle, the knowledge may save human lives, if the near miss does not work and the animal is not found, we've done a great injustice, is the juice worth the squeeze...

No offense but you obviously watch entirely too much CSI, Your not even in the same section of the library as the rest of us

 

[GrayCreed]

Ruger Wrangler or MKIV

 

[FEENIX]

No offense but you obviously watch entirely too much CSI, Your not even in the same section of the library as the rest of us

L L!

 

[calling4life]

No offense but you obviously watch entirely too much CSI, Your not even in the same section of the library as the rest of us

Haven't had TV/cable in many years.
There's an old proverb/saying
"Wise men learn by other men's mistakes; fools by their own.

Which is to say, I can watch you put your hand in the fire, get burned, and learn not to put your hand in the fire, while you nurse your wounds, and come out with the same lesson learned, without having the experience.

If you're alluding to me never having had to stop a charge or because I live in black bear country that it magically makes my notes irrelevant.

But I suppose perhaps I'm missing to what you are alluding.

Are you simply trying to say I am overanalyzing this, if so, I work in law enforcement, I apply and enforce law, educate on law, negotiate difficult situations with people that have far more advanced degrees than I.

So I suppose it is likely accurate that I can tend to overanalyze everything, if that is to what you are alluding.

 

[WYO300RUM]

I hate dissertations.

relax brother...

 

[FEENIX]

relax brother...

LOL! I really do hate dissertations.

 

[WYO300RUM]

LOL! I really do hate dissertations.

 

[yorke-1]

Apparently, I need to move. In all my years of hunting in western WA (with some of the highest black bear populations in the lower 48 states) I've never encountered an aggressive bear. This includes all the times I've walked in between a sow with cubs in the middle of a berry field, called them in until they're within rock-throwing range, spooked an old boar while he was chasing a sow, and while trailing a wounded bear that somebody else hit and never even tried to recover. I've spent my whole life trying to get mauled by a black bear and I just can't make it happen! LOL

The average black bear really isn't that big (maybe 200# in most areas) and their bone aren't all that tough. I'd consider anything in the 357 and up category more than enough if the right bullet is used. I'm not big on the capacity over horsepower approach, but if it makes somebody feel good, then go for it. If a guy shoots a 9mm pistol better than a 44 mag, the 9mm is the obvious choice. I tend to be a revolver guy, but if I'm not carrying a revolver it's going to be a 1911, so I still don't have a ton of extra shots handy.

As much as I love the 10mm (I've had a bunch of them and still have both a 10mm and a 10mm Mag) it still cracks me up when it gets lumped in with big bore revolver cartridges in discussions like this. The 10mm has become the 6.5 Creedmoor of handguns. It's a good chambering with a lot going for it, but it gets hyped up to be SOOOO much more than it really is. I'd also suggest that anyone with a 10mm goes out and does some real testing with different ammunition before just running straight to the heaviest bullet a manufacturer offers. A little time spent on penetration tests will show some surprising results with some of the popular bullet styles being loaded in that ammo. There's a reason that handgun hunters use a bullet with a wide, flat meplat.

 

[ButterBean]

LOL! I really do hate dissertations.

That makes 3 of us

 

[wilkup]

... The 10mm has become the 6.5 Creedmoor of handguns. It's a good chambering with a lot going for it, but it gets hyped up to be SOOOO much more than it really is….

Those could be construed as fighting words, even though that comparison sent me into a laughing fit