calling4life
Well-Known Member
Not pointed at any one specific individual here:
The reason people will pick on your 10mm 15+1 rounds and faster reloads idea is multifaceted.
Number one, you think you're going to shoot 15 rounds and reload. Statistically this is ridiculous, not impossible, ridiculous, not to mention, what makes you think round 14 is going to be your diamond in the rough when 1-13 didn't work.
It isn't a statistical probability, that's a big sticking point. I have 15 rounds, I can reload faster with my magazine... great. That's about as relevant as what battery your wife uses in her vibrator in the moment.
Spray and pray we call it, you can watch snow goose hunters dump extended mags of birdshot at thousands of birds hovering above them and hit only sky.
Spray and pray isn't a great plan, but it is a plan, it also can and has worked.
Next, your 220gr hardcast only has a .196 sectional density. This is not good, not an impossibility, but not good.
If we're shooting for statistical probability, a .196 sectional density, less power, and thinking you're dumping your mag/spray and pray, is far from ideal. It can work, possible, not ideal, there's better to be had.
Now, you may say, but I am not interested in a mag dump, or spray and pray, I carry a 10mm because it is as potent as I can handle with the level of precision I wish to see in the situation, I'm fine focusing on only the first shot, waiting for it to be right.
To which, I'd say, ok, I like it, I still don't like the .196 sectional density, I don't want to see it deflect on you, stop short when hitting bone or in bone, but ok, let's go track some bears, I can understand this.
A worthwhile pointing out is that in Africa, dangerous game is met with a .300+ sectional density, and the plus side of that being common, my 458 lott 500gr is .341.
Another point, if it is affordable to the person, it is common to see a prohunter backing up on dangerous game with a double rifle.
Two shots, now, that is two immediate shots (given recovery from recoil), you may fire 4 with your Glock 10mm in the same time, may fire 6, do you think any of them is wishing for your Glock in that situation.
It's quality of shot that wins the day, not number of shots. This of course doesn't always work, we're still human, and the universe is still the universe, unpredictability can be unpredictable.
So, don't worry if you can fire 15 rounds of 10mm in the same time it takes you to fire 4 rounds of 44 mag.
That 340 +p+ 44 mag round has a much much much better sectional density, just worry about putting one where it matters, you don't need the 4.
I'll take the one over the 15, in fact. (though it isn't about 1 exactly, it's about ensuring the precision is there for each shot, period, the lead, the sight, the trigger press, though your first round will be your best opportunity at a precision stoppage) Big problem with having 15 rounds is the panic that can come over people who then resort to spray and pray because it's there. A big sticking point for why many a kid has been taught to shoot animals, even birds, with a single shot. They are forced to make each shot count.
So, for the 10mm, the constant shouting of I have 15 rounds just screams of spray and pray, and that worries us, because it may cost you your life, and we care.
The .196 SD worries us, because it may come up short, and that may cost you your life and we care.
It worries us because it may also cost the life of the guy reading your posts, thinking YEA!, 15 rounds, yea, 220gr hardcast is powerful.
In that same shoe, it may work just fine, and still in that shoe, the definitive answer isn't out there to be had for us, so we must discuss and work through. **This may be doable, if someone in Alaska were to collect raw griz heads, secure them down, take a 10mm with 220gr hardcast, 9mm with 147gr hardcasts, 44 mag with xyz and so on. And methodically take shots from dozens of angles to see if they will consistently penetrate to the brain. Now, you can't use the same head, each hit affects the structure, not that every bear in nature will be perfect, but you'd need to pay attention to any possibility of bullet paths crossing given angle.
May be ok to shoot once through the top of the head, then another from the front, angled up slightly, say through top jaw and out through top back of head. Bullet paths not crossing until brain cavity.
Raw fresh skulls though, to maintain integrity of test. Can't shoot 10mm between the eyes, then do same with 9mm and claim the 9mm worked, the 10mm damaged the structure there and it may give false results.
You'd also likely do each angle multiple times, even with the same caliber and bullet, to ensure a higher degree of consistency and try and rule out statistical flukes.
I know that some have tried to do similar in one-off scenarios, but one off tests, without specific controls and parameters aren't really going to do it, if we truly want to know, know know, not about having an idea that it may work. Frozen heads, just the bare skull, dried skulls, boiled, etc... all of this will ruin the integrity of the results.
Anyways the goal here, higher statistical probability of success. That may change per person, but to a degree it should be pretty consistent.
Quality solid, higher sectional density, is going to equal higher probability of success with the bullet, which is an important part. (big enough caliber bonded expandable can do it too, but this isn't really pistol territory)
Practice, on your part, for accuracy and draw time, has to be there regardless caliber or number of shots.
For me, if I was watching 100 people stand on a firing line, a softball on a rope was swung toward each, and I saw 99 guys dumping mags at it, and one guy patiently waiting and hitting it with one shot each time.
I'll take the one guy and you can have the 99 others for your bear charge.
I like the idea of patience, giving yourself as much advantage as possible, it won't be easy, the situation never will be, but I like that at 10 feet my margin of error for misjudging lead is bigger, my margin for error for misjudging his speed is bigger (is he traveling 20mph, 25, 30, 35...), and at 10 feet, it's just flat out easier to hit that peach.
I'm also not discussing bears that are scared off, in these instances, bear spray, clapping, bells, a flare, warning shots, so on and on and on could work. The ultimate threat here doesn't take lethal means to end, this isn't really the discussion.
You want another burner of a question/thread:
Now, perhaps we should discuss what stopping round actually means, because there are rounds, that with near miss brain shots, have still incapacitated animals. Any round that hits the brain will work, therefore hitting the brain as a stipulation effectively nullifies the question. Therefore brain hits actually are to be removed, from this new discussion.
Taylor noted the 600 Nitro Express could knock an elephant out for up to half an hour with a near miss brain shot.
In several of Mark Sullivans DVDS we see him employ a 10ft rule on charges and he's still alive, regardless how much you may hate him, he puts his life behind that motto, wait til 10ft, now start firing, on charges.
I point him out though because in some of those charges, with his 577 NE and his 600 NE he shows that he missed brain, he discusses it, yet the animal was still incapacitated, allowing for a safe follow up.
So, there's another question that creeps in, would a 500 S&W bring enough power, bullet diameter, momentum, energy, and all of whatever can create this stoppage with a near miss brain shot.
Could it incapacitate a bear with a near miss brain shot?
If so, and, say the 44mag won't, that would be a massive factor to consider as well.
If not though, then the massive recoil doesn't have that payoff and a gun like that may be far worse, if a lesser recoiling gun with similar/better Sectional Densities/proper penetrating bullets can be had. It may, at that point, be nothing more than extra recoil and weight to use the 500. (though a case may be had at that point for reduced loads as well, they generally still beat 44 mags and certainly 10mms in energy, plus you get a larger bullet diameter and have some extremely high sectional density bullet choices.) I digress
Now Taylor was talking elephant, Sullivan was largely cape buffalo, some hippo, a bear does not smash heads like a cape buffalo may do, or a bighorn sheep or the like for that matter.
So it may be that a bear may actually be quite a bit easier to "knock out," or effectively knock out, perhaps...
Anyways:
This again, is another part of the conversation, and one that will most certainly never be truly solved. We'll only hear of anecdotal incidents. Seeing it, as in Mark Sullivans DVDs is a tremendous value. And while I respect that he lives his motto and truly has and does bet his life on it, I am still very up in the air on much of him, though only knowing what I see in his videos.
Bears over bait would perhaps be a good testing ground for this "knock out," but it would mean intentionally shooting to miss brain, this is an ethical issue for sure. A battle, the knowledge may save human lives, if the near miss does not work and the animal is not found, we've done a great injustice, is the juice worth the squeeze...
The reason people will pick on your 10mm 15+1 rounds and faster reloads idea is multifaceted.
Number one, you think you're going to shoot 15 rounds and reload. Statistically this is ridiculous, not impossible, ridiculous, not to mention, what makes you think round 14 is going to be your diamond in the rough when 1-13 didn't work.
It isn't a statistical probability, that's a big sticking point. I have 15 rounds, I can reload faster with my magazine... great. That's about as relevant as what battery your wife uses in her vibrator in the moment.
Spray and pray we call it, you can watch snow goose hunters dump extended mags of birdshot at thousands of birds hovering above them and hit only sky.
Spray and pray isn't a great plan, but it is a plan, it also can and has worked.
Next, your 220gr hardcast only has a .196 sectional density. This is not good, not an impossibility, but not good.
If we're shooting for statistical probability, a .196 sectional density, less power, and thinking you're dumping your mag/spray and pray, is far from ideal. It can work, possible, not ideal, there's better to be had.
Now, you may say, but I am not interested in a mag dump, or spray and pray, I carry a 10mm because it is as potent as I can handle with the level of precision I wish to see in the situation, I'm fine focusing on only the first shot, waiting for it to be right.
To which, I'd say, ok, I like it, I still don't like the .196 sectional density, I don't want to see it deflect on you, stop short when hitting bone or in bone, but ok, let's go track some bears, I can understand this.
A worthwhile pointing out is that in Africa, dangerous game is met with a .300+ sectional density, and the plus side of that being common, my 458 lott 500gr is .341.
Another point, if it is affordable to the person, it is common to see a prohunter backing up on dangerous game with a double rifle.
Two shots, now, that is two immediate shots (given recovery from recoil), you may fire 4 with your Glock 10mm in the same time, may fire 6, do you think any of them is wishing for your Glock in that situation.
It's quality of shot that wins the day, not number of shots. This of course doesn't always work, we're still human, and the universe is still the universe, unpredictability can be unpredictable.
So, don't worry if you can fire 15 rounds of 10mm in the same time it takes you to fire 4 rounds of 44 mag.
That 340 +p+ 44 mag round has a much much much better sectional density, just worry about putting one where it matters, you don't need the 4.
I'll take the one over the 15, in fact. (though it isn't about 1 exactly, it's about ensuring the precision is there for each shot, period, the lead, the sight, the trigger press, though your first round will be your best opportunity at a precision stoppage) Big problem with having 15 rounds is the panic that can come over people who then resort to spray and pray because it's there. A big sticking point for why many a kid has been taught to shoot animals, even birds, with a single shot. They are forced to make each shot count.
So, for the 10mm, the constant shouting of I have 15 rounds just screams of spray and pray, and that worries us, because it may cost you your life, and we care.
The .196 SD worries us, because it may come up short, and that may cost you your life and we care.
It worries us because it may also cost the life of the guy reading your posts, thinking YEA!, 15 rounds, yea, 220gr hardcast is powerful.
In that same shoe, it may work just fine, and still in that shoe, the definitive answer isn't out there to be had for us, so we must discuss and work through. **This may be doable, if someone in Alaska were to collect raw griz heads, secure them down, take a 10mm with 220gr hardcast, 9mm with 147gr hardcasts, 44 mag with xyz and so on. And methodically take shots from dozens of angles to see if they will consistently penetrate to the brain. Now, you can't use the same head, each hit affects the structure, not that every bear in nature will be perfect, but you'd need to pay attention to any possibility of bullet paths crossing given angle.
May be ok to shoot once through the top of the head, then another from the front, angled up slightly, say through top jaw and out through top back of head. Bullet paths not crossing until brain cavity.
Raw fresh skulls though, to maintain integrity of test. Can't shoot 10mm between the eyes, then do same with 9mm and claim the 9mm worked, the 10mm damaged the structure there and it may give false results.
You'd also likely do each angle multiple times, even with the same caliber and bullet, to ensure a higher degree of consistency and try and rule out statistical flukes.
I know that some have tried to do similar in one-off scenarios, but one off tests, without specific controls and parameters aren't really going to do it, if we truly want to know, know know, not about having an idea that it may work. Frozen heads, just the bare skull, dried skulls, boiled, etc... all of this will ruin the integrity of the results.
Anyways the goal here, higher statistical probability of success. That may change per person, but to a degree it should be pretty consistent.
Quality solid, higher sectional density, is going to equal higher probability of success with the bullet, which is an important part. (big enough caliber bonded expandable can do it too, but this isn't really pistol territory)
Practice, on your part, for accuracy and draw time, has to be there regardless caliber or number of shots.
For me, if I was watching 100 people stand on a firing line, a softball on a rope was swung toward each, and I saw 99 guys dumping mags at it, and one guy patiently waiting and hitting it with one shot each time.
I'll take the one guy and you can have the 99 others for your bear charge.
I like the idea of patience, giving yourself as much advantage as possible, it won't be easy, the situation never will be, but I like that at 10 feet my margin of error for misjudging lead is bigger, my margin for error for misjudging his speed is bigger (is he traveling 20mph, 25, 30, 35...), and at 10 feet, it's just flat out easier to hit that peach.
I'm also not discussing bears that are scared off, in these instances, bear spray, clapping, bells, a flare, warning shots, so on and on and on could work. The ultimate threat here doesn't take lethal means to end, this isn't really the discussion.
You want another burner of a question/thread:
Now, perhaps we should discuss what stopping round actually means, because there are rounds, that with near miss brain shots, have still incapacitated animals. Any round that hits the brain will work, therefore hitting the brain as a stipulation effectively nullifies the question. Therefore brain hits actually are to be removed, from this new discussion.
Taylor noted the 600 Nitro Express could knock an elephant out for up to half an hour with a near miss brain shot.
In several of Mark Sullivans DVDS we see him employ a 10ft rule on charges and he's still alive, regardless how much you may hate him, he puts his life behind that motto, wait til 10ft, now start firing, on charges.
I point him out though because in some of those charges, with his 577 NE and his 600 NE he shows that he missed brain, he discusses it, yet the animal was still incapacitated, allowing for a safe follow up.
So, there's another question that creeps in, would a 500 S&W bring enough power, bullet diameter, momentum, energy, and all of whatever can create this stoppage with a near miss brain shot.
Could it incapacitate a bear with a near miss brain shot?
If so, and, say the 44mag won't, that would be a massive factor to consider as well.
If not though, then the massive recoil doesn't have that payoff and a gun like that may be far worse, if a lesser recoiling gun with similar/better Sectional Densities/proper penetrating bullets can be had. It may, at that point, be nothing more than extra recoil and weight to use the 500. (though a case may be had at that point for reduced loads as well, they generally still beat 44 mags and certainly 10mms in energy, plus you get a larger bullet diameter and have some extremely high sectional density bullet choices.) I digress
Now Taylor was talking elephant, Sullivan was largely cape buffalo, some hippo, a bear does not smash heads like a cape buffalo may do, or a bighorn sheep or the like for that matter.
So it may be that a bear may actually be quite a bit easier to "knock out," or effectively knock out, perhaps...
Anyways:
This again, is another part of the conversation, and one that will most certainly never be truly solved. We'll only hear of anecdotal incidents. Seeing it, as in Mark Sullivans DVDs is a tremendous value. And while I respect that he lives his motto and truly has and does bet his life on it, I am still very up in the air on much of him, though only knowing what I see in his videos.
Bears over bait would perhaps be a good testing ground for this "knock out," but it would mean intentionally shooting to miss brain, this is an ethical issue for sure. A battle, the knowledge may save human lives, if the near miss does not work and the animal is not found, we've done a great injustice, is the juice worth the squeeze...
I'd take it over my 10mm any day for a bear. Pennsylvania has some big black bears. So. Ca. Has has some 500 to over 600 lbs. . I watched a video of a big 16 yr. Old black bear go into convience store and a market in Lake Tahoe. Good thing he was used to people. The tree huggers there are ignorant . Treat them like pets. Thanks !
