Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

[Roughwater]

Hi all,

I gotta say, I like both these bullets, Barns and Burgers. I haven't yet killed anything with a Burger bullet but I did just get a report back from a friend who I reloaded some for. His wife is a small lady and hunts deer with a Savage, Youth model, 243 Winchester and she literally doesn't miss. I reloaded some 95gn burgers for her last year using Ramshot hunter and Federal Gold medal Match LR primers. Well, she finally got around to using them this year and has killed 2 deer so far. Her husband called me twice about the results, once after she shot the deer and a second time when he took them out of the cooler and processed them. He says they are the most devistating 243 bullets she has shot. He say's they pulverize bone and destroy all the internals. He started her out shooting Balistic Tips till they lost one deer when the BT hit a sholder bone. They found the deer later but lost the meat. Then they went to the Winchester XP3 loaded amo which they liked but was pricy so when they ran out they tried the Burgers and love them. I wondered if they would be concerned with potential meat loss as they process thier own Deer. So this is pretty much the only RED meat they use but my friend say's he's more concerned with downing the deer quickly and now believes these are the 243 pill he's been looking for.

Terry

 

[royinidaho]

Time for a bit of a reminder.

Several years ago a very unscientific test was conducted to determine terminal performance of bullets.

There happened to be a 25-06 available all tuned with Berger 115 gr Match Grade VLD Hunting offerings. It wasn't part of the test.

For some unknown reason, after penetration through the chest on the already expired and hung upside down 600+ lb boar pig was determined to be only 2" less than the 300 SMK out of the 338 RUM (16" vs 18". But they were a very tough 2" into the offside shoulder plate), We went for the biggest bone on the pig. The rear ham bone!


Distance: 100 yds
MV: 3060

Results: Completely unexpected complete penetration of both legs. Never figured that little pill to make it through the on-side leg, let along through both. Shaking the pig clearly indicated that the onside leg bone was mush and the offside bone definitely broken. Impressive!!

The pig ................Complete penetration ....................Onside exit ....................Onside exit size reference

 

[Magnumitis]

i would love to see you shoot a 3 inch group at 700 yards off your backpack with a barnes bullet. let me know what state you are in and i will make the drive. barnes do not shoot, i am also a 300 rum shooter, and have never seen those bullets fly under .5moa in any 300 rum. try the 210 grain berger with 92.2 grains of retumbo. they will outshoot your barnes all day long, and into the night.gun)

What is so unbelievable about that? I don't think you're a 300 rum expert but I do think you have a very large ego due to the post above.

Also, you pretty much lost all credibility when I read one of your posts on another thread. Allow me to quote you again:

"I shoot 300 rum also. if you get a pass through at 86 yards your bullet is to hard. we shot a mule deer last week at 300 yards with a 230 grain berger and both shoulders were mush, with know exit wound. i am a believer in no exit wound on game, i also tried the barnes, the copper is to hard.
c dub."

That second sentence absolutely baffles me.

 

[Tikkamike]

i would love to see you shoot a 3 inch group at 700 yards off your backpack with a barnes bullet. let me know what state you are in and i will make the drive. barnes do not shoot, i am also a 300 rum shooter, and have never seen those bullets fly under .5moa in any 300 rum. try the 210 grain berger with 92.2 grains of retumbo. they will outshoot your barnes all day long, and into the night.gun)

Are you kidding me? 3" at 700 yards in unbelievable to you? I shoot a LOT of Barnes bullets and I would be more than happy to take you up on your offer of driving out for a friendly shooting competition. You might mop the floor with me but i will show you a 3" group at 700 with Barnes no problem.

Secondly everyone is always talking about when you hit them in the boiler room they are screwed and I agree a berger can be devastating in the right conditions. I have seen them kill, I have also seen them fail. (and by fail I mean blow up on an elks shoulder and a second and third shot was required to put them down) that was with a 168vld in a 7 mag. What about when that big tough bull is running away from you into the trees and your only shot is to break his back half?? I am gonna put my money on a partition or a barnes. I doubt very many of you have killed more elk than me and I have seen 2-3 times that many being shot with every variation you can think of and I know what it takes to but down big adrenaline filled animals and its bone crushing deep penetrating projectiles. smaller stuff like deer and antelope are easy you can kill them with about anything, but for stuff that matters I am going to pick a bullet that wont fail. Even if it doesnt open up its still poking holes and breaking bones, nothing can live with a sucking chest wound, and it certainly cant use a crushed bone.....

 

[Wingnut]

Tikkamike and others make a good point about accuracy, barnes shoot extremely well. They are even easier than VLD style bullets to get to shoot well because they are not as sensitive to seating depth. I personally have never seen any VLD style bullet fail on any game from buffalo to coyote, and do use them almost exclusively. Where they excell is at long range when the high BC helps performance. I believe that in most large magnums any bullet will perform well because you are able to get enough velocity at the longer ranges to expand even solid bullets. Where you see great performance in the VLD is the marginal calibers that do not have enough case capacity to achieve great long range velocity. Then the higher BC helps these calibers. I personally would love to see a Swift Sirocco II with a VLD shape or a tipped TTSX or MRX. These would blow the VLD's with the J4 jackets out of the water. Why haven't we seen them make these offerings? I contacted swift and they said the VLD design would not stabilize in factory barrels. What? Most of the factory barrels today are going toward faster twists. I personally think thier sales are sustaining and they will not make a change if they are making money. I wish they would realize they would own bullet sales if they had VLD offerings. Just my 2 cents!

 

[Roughwater]

I gotta agree with Wingnut. Barnes bullets are so easy to reload and still shoot accurately compared to the Burgers. Fortunately my friend's wife Savage has a 1 in 9 twist rate and that don't hurt either. I have never seen one fail. Mechanically, I don't see how one could except possibly when shot at a range that would prevent them from opening up or shot with an extreamly low velocity load. Even then, you get a double lung shot and like James Cagney used to say in the ganster movies, It's Curtains....

But I do like the Burger Streamlined bullet as it looks like it's made for long range and of course is! I'm working on some accurate 270 and 270 WSM loads with the Burgers as I think they will be excellant for long range deer hunting. But I see Barnes has built a bullet even more suitable for long range than the TTSX and I'm not talking about their expensive Tungsten bullet. I'm talking about the LRX. It has a longer boattail and a more streched out nose. They only make them in a couple calibers so far and not in .277 at least not yet.
I loaded some for a Friends 300 WinMag and they shot quite well my friend reported but he hasn't used any on game yet.

 

[jessegibson1978]

lightbulbHave to throw my 0.02 cents in. Skip Talbot held the 1000 yard absolute record with a .50 BMG shooting a 750 grain Barnes. Anyone who thinks Barnes are inaccurate only needs to research there history a bit. Im not knocking the vld. However the reason we have so many excellent bullets to chose from is different people prefer there bullet to act differently than others. Just food for thought.

 

[NYLES]

Hey Spanky.....Hold the target STILL!

LMAO!

I wish I could mix those two bullets together stretch the barns, keep the tip, add that RBBT, get the BC up...till then. Last load I worked the Barnes beat the Accubond both shot 1/2 moa but man the Barnes was stackin em!

 

[NYLES]

Hey Spanky.....Hold the target STILL!

LMAO!

I wish I could mix those two bullets together stretch the barns, keep the tip, add that RBBT, get the BC up...till then. Last load I worked the Barnes beat the Accubond both shot 1/2 moa but man the Barnes was stackin em!

BTW waitin on some Bergers now, will be my first batch, just dont want yall to think Im pimping the Barnes.

 

[bigngreen]

Secondly everyone is always talking about when you hit them in the boiler room they are screwed and I agree a berger can be devastating in the right conditions. I have seen them kill, I have also seen them fail. (and by fail I mean blow up on an elks shoulder and a second and third shot was required to put them down) that was with a 168vld in a 7 mag. What about when that big tough bull is running away from you into the trees and your only shot is to break his back half?? I am gonna put my money on a partition or a barnes. I doubt very many of you have killed more elk than me and I have seen 2-3 times that many being shot with every variation you can think of and I know what it takes to but down big adrenaline filled animals and its bone crushing deep penetrating projectiles. smaller stuff like deer and antelope are easy you can kill them with about anything, but for stuff that matters I am going to pick a bullet that wont fail. Even if it doesnt open up its still poking holes and breaking bones, nothing can live with a sucking chest wound, and it certainly cant use a crushed bone.....

Not calling you out Mike, but for the exact reasons you use Barnes I have changed over to softer bullets like the Berger and Matrix. We all have different expectations of a bullet so for us to all agree on one bullet just ain't happening!

I think the Barnes can be to hard for elk and opens to fast causing deflection instead of penetration, seen it proven several times on the front shoulder of elk. This year we tested the 165 Matrix on elk, hard quartering shots in the timber was more the norm this year and instead of just breaking the spine these bullets REMOVE a section of spine and blow it into vital organs, more than once we were lucky we were shooting fangable bullets, had a gut shot deer that tipped over like you shot him through the lungs due to the bullet going in and delivering enough energy to split the liver and disrupt other organs. A hard bullet would have likely caused a loss of an animal.
For me the Bergers have really shined in the less than ideal shot placement, when we were all shooting Barnes we were much more careful about shot placement due to loosing animal with less than ideal placement or bullets deflecting of bone.
I still shoot some Barnes bullets in situations where they work great, deer and antelope with high power rifles or coyotes. Looking at the Cutting Edge bullets they may be the ideal bullets with a little of both worlds!!

 

[Roughwater]

Hey Spanky.....Hold the target STILL!

LMAO!

I wish I could mix those two bullets together stretch the barns, keep the tip, add that RBBT, get the BC up...till then. Last load I worked the Barnes beat the Accubond both shot 1/2 moa but man the Barnes was stackin em!

Check out the Newish Barnes LRX. It's like a stretched out TTSX. I don't know the BC but it's for sure higher than the TTSX.

New Barnes LRX® | Barnes Bullets

Looks like they make a 6.5 -127 gn, 7mm -168 Gn, 338 Lapua -280 Gn and 308 in 175 and 200 gn.

 

[NYLES]

Check out the Newish Barnes LRX. It's like a stretched out TTSX. I don't know the BC but it's for sure higher than the TTSX.

New Barnes LRX® | Barnes Bullets

Looks like they make a 6.5 -127 gn, 7mm -168 Gn, 338 Lapua -280 Gn and 308 in 175 and 200 gn.

Will do, I have 100 pieces of brass ready to go. Finished workin a load with 190 Bergers today shot a .70 5 shot at 100 yards, horrible winds and freshly cleaned barrel group was getting tighter on the last 3 shots. take out the first shot and its well within .4 so I quit and loaded a batch of.....

190 Berger vld hunting
81gr H1000
cci LGR 200 primers
Norma brass
col of 3.560
no fps chrono is busted

Sendero, W/ jewel trigger and NF scope

 

[NYLES]

Check out the Newish Barnes LRX. It's like a stretched out TTSX. I don't know the BC but it's for sure higher than the TTSX.

New Barnes LRX® | Barnes Bullets

Looks like they make a 6.5 -127 gn, 7mm -168 Gn, 338 Lapua -280 Gn and 308 in 175 and 200 gn.

Will do, I have 100 pieces of brass ready to go. Finished workin a load with 190 Bergers today shot a .70 5 shot at 100 yards, horrible winds and freshly cleaned barrel group was getting tighter on the last 3 shots. take out the first shot and its well within .4 so I quit and loaded a batch of.....

300 WM
190 Berger vld hunting
81gr H1000
cci LGR 200 primers
Norma brass
col of 3.560
no fps chrono is busted

Sendero, W/ jewel trigger and NF scope

 

[stevesdl]

Okay, I am going to make this failry short. I have absolutely no take for either side but:
This years fall big game season using the following:
1. Custom gunsmith built long range 300 Win mag with a nightforce scope

2. Custom reloads using the 210 gr Match Grade VLD Hunting bullet; FPS is getting clocked at around 2805.

3. Countless range time validations for continuous consistent 5/8" groups @ 200 yards. (We know the bullet shoots and is very accurate)

4. Individual using this rifle takes game every year and with "one shot" kills the absolute norm.

In the field, normal 68 degree weather, sun shining, 1-2 mph wind at most. Buck Muley at approximately 60 yards, give or take 5 yards. Shooter and 3 additional hunters at the scene. It is not rutting season yet but this Buck will not leave this one small marsh. standing like his picture is being taken.

Shooter aims, fires. Buck drops like a table with a 500 pound weight and the legs get cut off. Everyone is walking to the kill to celebrate. This buck is DRT. It is in the freezer. It is "one shot as usual kill". It is.... it is.... its.... its back up on all fours and taking off. Its running, its , its, its.... GONE.

No blood path. Nothing to assist in tracking. Did the bullet explode on impact at that close range? Don't know, but this hunters experience and expertise in shooting leaves us no doubt that he "DIDN'T HIT THE ANTLERS" as some might state.