Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

[Tikkamike]

Not calling you out Mike, but for the exact reasons you use Barnes I have changed over to softer bullets like the Berger and Matrix. We all have different expectations of a bullet so for us to all agree on one bullet just ain't happening!

I think the Barnes can be to hard for elk and opens to fast causing deflection instead of penetration, seen it proven several times on the front shoulder of elk. This year we tested the 165 Matrix on elk, hard quartering shots in the timber was more the norm this year and instead of just breaking the spine these bullets REMOVE a section of spine and blow it into vital organs, more than once we were lucky we were shooting fangable bullets, had a gut shot deer that tipped over like you shot him through the lungs due to the bullet going in and delivering enough energy to split the liver and disrupt other organs. A hard bullet would have likely caused a loss of an animal.
For me the Bergers have really shined in the less than ideal shot placement, when we were all shooting Barnes we were much more careful about shot placement due to loosing animal with less than ideal placement or bullets deflecting of bone.
I still shoot some Barnes bullets in situations where they work great, deer and antelope with high power rifles or coyotes. Looking at the Cutting Edge bullets they may be the ideal bullets with a little of both worlds!!

I can see your side of the coin and agree, if you gut shoot an elk with a barnes south of the diaphragm you will never see that elk again. I stand by my opinion though that the barnes and partition (at least in my experience) do the job on bones and anything north of the diaphragm without fail. I have never seen one deflect, I have heard the theory but never seen it happen. I imagine it would have something to do with the (light for caliber) offerings that they have. I tend to stick to the heavier bullets (example 200 opposed to 168 on .308 caliber) they market that because of the weight retention you can go lighter, but I still think you need the initial weight. Maybe I am wrong but so far its worked well for me

 

[Eric Stecker]

Custom reloads using the 210 gr Match Grade VLD Hunting bullet

Stevedl,

Can you tell me the lot number of the bullets you were using? Do you have any bullets left from that lot? The amount of fragmentation at close range would have produced a large surface wound if that is what happened. Did you or the other see anything suggesting there was this type of wound?

It is not my intent to refute your report but rather gain a better understanding so that we can know what happened instead of guess and then do everything in our power to prevent it.

Regards,
Eric

 

[stevesdl]

Hi Eric,
No problem of asking questions. Actually after coming back and reading this, it might appear that I am slamming this product. Everyone should please discern, that is not my intention.

I mentioned "(We know the bullet shoots and is very accurate)". This bullet is not"just accurate" but "CONSISTENTLY ACCURATE"! Sometime the base to ogive measurements were not perfectly consistent but the weight was almost perfect all the time. That confused me a little and we noted a few in the beginning but it just didn't matter. These bullets shoot perfectly.

The shooter practiced with a lot of these bullets for 4-5 months before hunting season and honestly, it was pretty easy to dial in on the seating depth, powder and primer. (we seated barely into the lands)

I have one of the empty boxes that denotes a lot number of 3205 but I am going to be honest and state that might not have been the box. I do not have current contact with the hunter so that is the best i can do for you.

I was actually 100 yards around the corner. This account was given by the other 4 in the party. I took part in the search and also looking for even one drop of blood. We never found that or any tuffs of hair either but there is no doubt that Buck went down and down fast. It was a pretty good joke for a short while at camp.

My only disappointment was there were just no blood signs, and if the bullet performed as hoped, there would be no need for such with a permanent DRT shot. I had read some hunter experiences that were similar for close up shots and I had voiced a slight concern regarding this but this shooter had spent a lot of money for long range equipment and opportunity and so this possibility was quickly dispelled... until it happened. Will it happen again. I have no idea. It could just be a 1 in a million fluke. I don't even understand how it can happen with a 210 gr bullet. This was not a trophy buck by any means so no harm, no foul.

Not sure if the lot number will help but I for one kindly ask you to keep producing your super accurate premium bullet at a less than premium bullet price in boxes of 100. I might even try them one day.

Thanks for your time Eric
Stevesdl

 

[Eric Stecker]

Stevesdl,

Thank you for your reply. It is accurate that no bullet works 100% of the time for many reasons. This is something we are working very hard to change. One of the challenges is that these situations happen rarely enough that we have limited data.

It is extremely rare that a report such as this will come in for more than one bullet. One would think that if there was a bullet specific issue that this result would be observed with more bullets from within that same lot. Unfortunately, for us, this is not the case. (I say unfortunately because if we had more data we could get to the bottom of this)

We are listening closely to these reports and working the solution. We are putting tests together to see if we can recreate these occurances with deliberate changes to the bullet. We'll keep working on it and I will stay tuned in to each of these reports.

Thank you for your kind words about our consistency. We will keep producing super accurate bullets.

Regards,
Eric

 

[300winniemag]

gun)

I can see your side of the coin and agree, if you gut shoot an elk with a barnes south of the diaphragm you will never see that elk again.
I agree that south of the diaphragm is a bad shot but i have seen this happen many times from antalope to elk with the barnes iv been using them exclusivly since 2006 and have learned not to underestamate a barnes x bullet. its amaxing how many more animals iv seen drop since iv swiched from the almighty nosler parition swift scrisco which i beileve to be the best lead core bullet if you choose to go that rout. iv seen my fair shair of gutshot game all the antalope iv seen gutshot with a barnes just sand their or lay down til you are able to put a beter follow up shot deer i shot a deer last year about 8-12 inches further back than i inteded at about 4oo yards i know my bullet barnes 150 gr 30-06 at 2960fps didnt hit a vital organ but their was still liquified organs when i guted it. Oh the deer only took about 10 paces then died. Elk are a little bit different story my dad shot a 3 by 5 bull elk this year with his 300 win barnes ttsx 180 gr at 2990 fps a 200 yard running shot hit the elk in the guts first shot the elk slowed and the rest of the herd went over the ridge he layed down he walked up to about 100 yards of her he stood up but only barley could took a few stagering steps befor my dad shot again again not a perfect shot it hit the last rib but still dropped him after the second shot internal damage was incredible i couldnt find the liver to eat (****) the heart i know for sure wasnt hit in any way or form but was still ripped up prety bad. Im not saying i trust a gutshot but i have learned from first hand expirence that barnes are extreamly devistating i know i can take any angle shot at an elk and still hit the vitals i cant say that through my past expiriences with a berger VLD bullet not to make berger fans unhappy but i will never use them again for deer and god forbid elk. reason being iv lost the bigest bull iv ever shot at i found quite a bit of hair but no blood and wors of all no elk only animal iv ever lost the gun was a 300 win mag 190 gr vld at i think it was like 2980 fps. so to rap things up my vote goes to barnes because they do open up on any game i bet they even open up on a rabit since they sure blow holes in antalope i dont trust bergers after my last and will be only expirience with them imho they were once a target bullet and allways will be the copper jacket is to thin and soft the bullet when shot tword an animal will turn into a hefty flesh wound like my elk had when the bullet hits bone i know next time that big bull is in my crosshairs hes going to get a real hard hiting devistating bone crushing organ liquifing DRT barnes TTSX for they have never faild me on all the animals iv shot around 20 big game animals drt. the furthest iv seen an animal pack a barnes was my budies white tail he shot with his 270 wsm 130 gr tsx and it only ran like 20 yards.

 

[mnoland30]

I had an easy shot at 150 yards at a nice buck a few years back. I was using a new bullet I hadn't tried before. The buck ran with no blood trail. I still can't bring myself to try that bullet again, even though a clean miss is more likely than bullet failure, based on my experience with other bullets from that maker.

I don't mean to beat you up here, but in my experience, if you get lots of hair and no blood, that usually means a grazing shot, either top or bottom of the animal. When a sharp pointed bullet (even a fat one) goes in, it usually doesn't tear out any hair. If you had an exit wound, that will almost always leave a trail, and hair (one reason folks like Barnes).

I shot a cow elk with a Precision Rifle 340 gr. Dead Center this year, and it ran off with no blood trail. I found her 75 yards away with the top of her heart blown away. No exit wound, a little blood on her hide where the bullet entered, no hair, and no blood trail, not even a drop.

My butcher started me on Barnes bullets. She would put all of the bullets she found in the meat in a tray on her counter. Every Barnes bullet looked just like the advertisements, no metal loss, and perfect petals. I've used Barnes for years, and had DRT performance on elk and gemsbok, but I've had deer and bear run away after a shot. My conclusion is that it wasn't bullet failure, but shooter failure. I hunted for 13 years before I ever shot at a big game animal I didn't harvest. The first time it happened, I couldn't believe it. I saw the animal go down spectacularly, with its feet straight up in the air as it flew through the air. No blood. Being stubborn, I kept looking until I found the 4" tip of his antler. No accounting for how I missed an easy shot, but I keep that antler as a reminder of human error.

I have also used Bergers, and got performance just as advertised. I don't believe I'd shoot one directly at a shoulder bone. I've had pure lead muzzleloader bullets break in two on a shoulder bone at 90 yards (although it cracked the ball joint). Fortunately, the two split pieces went through the neck and lungs, so I recovered the elk within about 75 yards.

 

[parker33]

I haven't personally tried Barnes bulletrs but have been using Berger for a couple of years. We wnet to Colorado for whitetail recently and I shot one at 640 yards and my friend shot one at 570 yards and the Berger peformed very well. Both broadside shots with one through the heart and one double lung. The bullets had nice exit wounds at these ranges and did plenty of organ damage. I have shot several hogs at closer ranges and had devestating organ damage. I plan on trying some Barnes bullets also to see for myself how well they work.

 

[Eric Stecker]

To Everyone,

It is very important for everyone to understand that the point of my starting this thread was not to create a "Chevy vs. Ford" debate. I was responding directly to claims made in an article Barnes published on their website which stated technical specifics that were incorrect and assumptions or opinions with which I strongly disagree. At no time did I suggest that hunters should not use Barnes if that is the type of performance with which they feel most comfortable.

Barnes is an option for those who want a bullet that does what a Barnes bullet does. Their bullets work very well for its designed purpose (high weight retention, deep penetration). For those who want to use a bullet that performs differently (penetration then fragmentation) you have the option of the Berger. Both brands make good bullets that work for hunters all over the world.

I am concerned that this thread will continue to serve as an us vs. them debate. If all hunters were to chime in there will be highlights and failures for both brands for reasons both within and outside of each brands control. Since it was not my intent to start this type of argument I will be asking Len to lock this thread from further posts.

Please understand that I very much appreciate the reports of successes with Bergers and we are paying close attention to the reports of failures. I'd be surprised if Barnes doesn't feel the same way regarding such reports from hunters using their bullets.

After my original post, Barnes rewrote (or expanded upon) the original article to explain why they made their original statements. As far as I'm concerned the situation is resolved. I'm not suggesting that hunters do not debate over brands or specific products performance but I believe this is not the thread for the endless continuation of that debate as this was not its purpose.

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Berger Bullets