Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

[bigngreen]

If you shoot enough bullet at enough game you'll likely have something go wrong some day, if you don't recover the animal a guy just don't know 100% what went wrong. I've nearly lost a couple elk shooting Barnes, the bullets failing to penetrate into the chest sucked but I figure it was partially my fault for putting them on the shoulder bone and giving them a chance to deflect, had I held 6in back I would still be shooting them by the truck load and never started shooting Bergers.
I'm glad I had a little hiccup and discovered one of the best hunting bullets I've put on elk, Bergers!!!! Also nice to have very consistent sub MOA groups a long ways out there and not having to do any copper mining
I do still like the Barnes for certain applications just not for long range hunting, actually starting a build wrapped around a Barnes, do like the looks of the Cutting Edge bullets for an all copper but they are also made to open dramatically according to the literature, they may be nice.

 

[parker33]

I have yet to even trail any game I have shot with berger bullets. I have used 6.5 , 7 mm and 30 caliber on game and simply went and picked them up. The next time I need 32 inches of bullet penetration on a game animal will be the first time. Keep up the good work at Berger. Thanks ,Scott

 

[Roughwater]

One thing for sure, both camps (Barnes and Burger) are passionate about thier bullets. I think that's because both bullets have thier positive merrits. I have had really good results with Barnes bullets and in at least one situation when I shot from a swaying tree on a windy day at a doe at less than a hundred yards I'm kinda glad they can penetrate many inches. I was trying to catch the doe in a quarterning away shot behind the last rib but hit her in her rump. She didn't take a step, just quivvered and fell straight down when hit. The 85 Gn, 243 TSX bullet had gone throuh the rear ham breaking her hip, penetrating her entire length and ending up against the hide just below her neck. Most of her vital organs were mush but not that much meat damage.

It is almost gun season here and I'm anxious to try the Bergers I've loaded. I'm impressed at the consistant weight of each bullet in a box of Burger VLD's and they cost less per bullet than a box of Barnes. However the Burgers seem more finicky to load than the Barns in the guns I shoot but I feel like when I get the load right they should have the potential of being extreamly accurate.
Guess I'll find out before long either way.

 

[kazreddy]

Bergers may be very accurate and flat shooting but I just cannot see how they are a good big-game bullet. Ask any African PH and see what they have to say. Whatever your feelings about them, they see 100s of animals being shot each year and have vast experience with all sorts of bullets used by clients. Their favorites tend to be the Swift A frames, nosler partions and even the barnes - all tougher bullets than the Bergers. I dont like barnes bullets but cant embrace burger either. The Accubond would be my choice for long range shooting.....

 

[Eric Stecker]

Arjun,

Try them once and then tell me what you think about them.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Pdvdh]

Ask any African PH and see what they have to say. Whatever your feelings about them, they see 100s of animals being shot each year and have vast experience with all sorts of bullets used by clients. Their favorites tend to be the Swift A frames, nosler partions and even the barnes - all tougher bullets than the Bergers. ...

I think it's essential to recognize that the African PHs are normally referring to their preference in bullets for harvesting animals that kill clients and PHs if not taken out reliably and efficiently. If you were to ask a PH which bullets they prefer exclusively for these dangerous animals, and then asked them what they preferred for the non-dangerous 50-70 lb antelopes, you could expect to receive very different answers. There's nothing wrong with the more explosive bullets for the game that aren't armored in AR-500 and don't kill the human hunter. Explosive bullets that reach, and explode, amidst the vitals will generally kill game animals more quickly (time-wise) than the controlled expansion bullets that hold together in largely one piece, and plow through the game animal while retaining close to 100% weight retention. If this concept makes no sense, then take it to whatever extreme is necessary to make sense. Harvesting adult African buffalo versus harvesting 80 lb deer in the Florida keys.

 

[CRaTxn]

Great insight Phorwath, I have been on a half dozen African Safaris and these gentlemen have a much different environment to hunt in. The typical safari client is NOT a great shot as he has spent most of his life experience making money not getting deep into shooting much less LRH, thus most PHs don't want a shot over 150 yards plus there are so many animals they can just keep making stalks or driving the hunting car until they get a nice close shot. And the bottom line is that in Africa if you miss and there is even the hint of a hit = you pay the thousand$ of dollars in trophy fee and get no animal.

 

[kazreddy]

And the bottom line is that in Africa if you miss and there is even the hint of a hit = you pay the thousand$ of dollars in trophy fee and get no animal.

Its one or the other, if you miss thats fine, if you hit the animal and blood is found and if anyone can the african trackers will find the blood, then the animal is wounded. Money aside I believe one is morally responsible to try and recover that animal. I have had to use follow up shots on wounded zebra and wildebeest both species known for their toughness and a raking TX heart shot was all I got. I was using a 375 H&H with Swift A frames and that concluded things. I dont know how well a buger bullet would have performed under those circumstances! In both cases my first shot was slightly off.

And yes there is a very big diff between a whitetail or similar sized animal v/s a tough african antelope like a wildebeest or zebra dont even talk about cape buffalo so while burgers will kill these smaller animals outright due to the explosive effect I am not so sure if that would be the case on bigger tougher animals.

And what happens if you mess it up and I dont care how good a shot anyone is, if you hunt long enough you will screw up a shot, and more so at longer ranges.

I don't have anything against burger bullets I am just questioning their effect especially on larger game. I have seen the videos by Best of the West and others and while the game drops in their tracks with high shoulder shots which paralyses the spine, I am not so sure what the outcome would be if a shot went off!

IMHO i believe that a SN bullet should expland but not explode completely.

 

[Eric Stecker]

I don't have anything against burger bullets I am just questioning their effect especially on larger game.

I don't mean any disrespect to you but it is Berger not burger. Most of those who question Berger's effectiveness as a quickly lethal bullet are those who have never tried them before.

I have killed many animals personally and have seen them autopsied. Out of several dozen I have seen myself only a small few were spine shot. Any bullet can drop game when the spine is hit. Ours does so even if the spine is not hit. This is due to the tremendous amount of energy that is dumped into the internals of the animal.

Not every animal that is hit with a Berger will drop in its tracks but I can assure you that every animal shot with a Berger dies from the wound channel created. This is not based on marketing hype but actual field evidence. Like I said, try them and then tell me that they don't work for you.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Browninglover1]

Honestly I was hesitant to use the Bergers on game bigger than deer but the first elk I saw shot at 412 yards put the bullet through the shoulder, dropped the cow in her tracks, completely destroyed the lung cavity and left a great exit wound. She was shot with a 185 grain VLD from a 300 WSM.

I used the same combo to shoot a spike elk this year that was looking straight at me at 50 yards, I just centered the cross hairs in his chest and he fell over stone dead. Bergers work extremely well when they're used as they should be.

 

[kazreddy]

Hi Eric,

Sorry for mispronouncing the name. Guess I will have to give it a try.

Cheers

Arjun Reddy

 

[FAL Shot]

There is a Kiwi PH that has a website that lists different bullets in different calibers to shoot different game species.

Bullets tend to vary within the type, caliber and weight from most manufacturers. A bullet type that behaves one way at 140 grains may be a lot different at 160 grains in 7mm caliber. The lighter is often designed to be more frangible while the heavier may be much tougher, though both carry the same name.

The Nosler Partition is both "explosive" and "tough". There are better bullets in either category, but not in both categories taken together overall. About 40% of a Partition will fly apart soon after impact and 60% will barrel on through in most cases, as it has done for the past 60+ years and as his actual tests proved on real animals. It is the granddaddy of premium hunting bullets and is still the standard to be compared against, and still the best bullet for more things under more circumstances than anything else you can name. It does not have a high ballistic coefficient, but that is a meaningless measurement inside of 200 yards where most game is shot.

His actual experience with his own clients proved that the .270 Winchester was the most successful caliber on NZ game. Something he would not have guessed without having seen the results repeated many times. It seems that Jack O'Connor got it right after all. He also had lots of respect for the 7x57mm Mauser, and I got a lot of insight into reloading for my 7x57 from his website. The Hornady A-Max is a nice Berger replacement in that caliber at a better price and easier to source locally.

Terminal Ballistics Research is his website, and it's about shooting real game animals with real bullets, not gelatin packs with lots of interpolations and assumptions. BTW, he found the deadliest bullet in .223 Remington on goats to be the FMJ tumbling bullet, and he has the photos to prove it. It seems that Eugene Stoner got that one right as well. You just need the correct twist rate to utilize that round. The improvement on Stoner's idea was made by FN in the 62 grain SS109, or M855 in US milspeak. It tumbles then breaks in half, but again the correct twist rate is required (which US M16 rifles do not utilize). Made to pierce armor better than the 7.62mm M80 armor piercing round, it also displays the flesh disrupting power of the tumbling bullet (times two after breakup). Police sniper tests proved it to be a good round if you knew how to take advantage of it. I met a guy that has used it a lot for killing our Montana plains game. 9" twist rate is correct, and the longer the barrel the better, as speed improves bullet upset on impact. However, it is not very accurate (2.5 MOA from my own FN produced samples) and not intended for shots over 300 yards if tumbling and breakup is expected. There are fake Turkish M855 rounds, and I have some of them. Totally different animals, and thay are headstamped "SS109". I never saw any real ones headstamped "SS109". Just a Turkish sales gimmick to fool the fools. Real SS109/M855 is tested with a magnet for the steel penetrator core under the jacket. Turkish rounds are lead core and fail this test.

 

[Dalebow]

Well not only did the 300 wsm perform well on an elk breaking both shoulders and exiting at 139 yards, also dropped 300 # mule deer in it's tracks, dropped 3 coyotes at 300-400 yards, 165 gr ttsx performed flawlessly, will use it next week on bear and Lu whitetail in 2 weeks, next year going to try the 185 vld for comparison

 

[Eric Stecker]

I haven't tried Berger bullets, but I probably will. It will only be for long range shots if I do. The performance seems to mimic Ballsitic Tip performance with a delayed reaction if it hits bone. My big beef is that I hardly ever see them on the shelf. Nosler and Hornady are by far the most popular bullets for reloading around here.

FAL Shot,

Have you had an opportunity to try Berger's yet? Frankly, I am glad that there are options for hunters. No single brand is going to meet every hunters needs including Bergers. However, results have shown that our bullets do very well when used. Strangely enough we don't do as well when they are discussed rather than tried.

I know our bullets aren't for everyone. I am working on the availability situation and this is improving but frankly Bergers will never be as plentiful or inexpensive as Hornady's. We have a different approach than they do. I'm not suggesting one approach is better than the other as there are benefits to both but the approaches are different.

Our bullets are very effective at close range as are many other hunting bullets (and not specifically hunting designated bullets) as you point out. Each hunter needs to consider their situation and select a bullet that works best for them. I offer that it doesn't make other options lesser if not selected but just not what that given hunter decided to go to the field with.

When selected, Bergers typically produce a result that makes those who try them happy enough to use them again. Especially those who may have an opportunity or desire to stretch their effectively lethal range.

Regards,
Eric