Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

[Roughwater]

Spencer SS,

That's a very impressive hole for a 222 bullet.

I have a Barne's success story also: Last year I had bought a 243 win for my grandson and gave it try on a med sized doe. The Doe was in some brush quartering away but I though I could still hit it' chest though I was in a swaying tree. Well, I missed it's chest and instead hit it in the rear hip. It stood there for a fraction of a second after the shot then fell straight down and stayed down. The Barnes 80gn TTSX bullet had gone through the hip bone, through the length of the deer made jello out of the liver and one lung then through a rib and and stopped against the skin. I weigted the bullet afterwards and it had gained a couple tenth's of a grain. So I'm a fan of Barnes as well. The Barne's all copper bullets may not match the BC of some other bullets but maybe the Barnes MRX bullets Do? I'm not sure that BC is a big factor anyway under 300yrds especially with a bullet that makes a big hole and penetrates completely.

Terry

 

[ken snyder]

I don't know the answer guys. I do know that any bullet will be the wrong choice if not selected for the right reasons. For me its not a bullet failure its a me failure. Some areas have a useful blood trail potential, I don't very often get to see one, rain drenched everything and rain by the bucket quickly eliminates all traces. definately don't want a bullet that turns my dinner into a pizza sized bowl of jello either. The results of the bullet are the results of my choice every time. I think most will agree, different bullets for different reasons.

 

[CRaTxn]

Wonderful SRH bullet performance gentlemen BUT remember this is LRH and our Xs behave different at impact velocities < 1500fps. I just learned more than the price of the book from Chapters; #15 Lethality of LRH Bullets, #16 Hit Probability for Hunting and #18 Monolithic Bullets in Bryan Litz's new Volume 2 of Applied Ballistics for Long-Range Shooting. Its the ole apples and oranges analogy.

 

[SpencerSS]

Wonderful SRH bullet performance gentlemen BUT remember this is LRH and our Xs behave different at impact velocities < 1500fps. I just learned more than the price of the book from Chapters; #15 Lethality of LRH Bullets, #16 Hit Probability for Hunting and #18 Monolithic Bullets in Bryan Litz's new Volume 2 of Applied Ballistics for Long-Range Shooting. Its the ole apples and oranges analogy.

Absolutely. I run the TSXs and TTSXs as far as I can; ex: 284win 140TTSX=600 maybe 700 yds. After that, Berger's got the market pretty well in hand. I look forward to seeing how far I can push the 140VLD in a 6.5WSM. Computer says I might get out to 1200yds with enough speed left to tear some flesh. Accuracy and my shooting ability will probably limit this number.

 

[Eric Stecker]

For the benefit of some who are reading this information for the first time it is important to explain some points.

From the very beginning we communicated that the way a Berger Hunting VLD works is an alternative to the way deep penetration, high weight retention bullets work. Those who believe they want their hunting bullet to perform differently have an alternative option.

Barnes clearly does solid bullets better and in far greater numbers than any bullet company on the planet. They are the experts in this area. I strongly believe that enough hunters enjoy the Barnes bullets that they will forever (in one form or another) exist in the market.

It has never been our intention to communicate that another bullet should not be used, period. In fact I know of several times that I've publicly encouraged shooters to use other brands for various reasons.

This thread exists because of how Barnes tried to make a point about their bullets. During this effort they made claims that ranged from partially incorrect to dangerously wrong. My rebuttal article was written as a response to the specific claims made and not for the purpose of telling hunters "don't shoot Barnes".

I don't want shooters to decide which bullets to shoot simply based on this debate. I want all shooters to know the truth. Those who use the truth to make the best choices for them will have the best experience no matter which products they use.

Barnes serves a specific group that wants the performance of a solid bullet. This will never change. On the other end of the terminal performance spectrum (in terms of how the bullet is lethal) is the Berger Hunting VLD. There are hunters who enjoy how the Berger Hunting VLDs works. This will also never change. However, as these groups continue to debate (which will also never change), at the very least we can speak correctly and honestly.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Pdvdh]

For the benefit of some who are reading this information for the first time it is important to explain some points.

Regards,
Eric

Perfect update to your Thread Eric! lightbulb

 

[Greg Duerr]

That Photo of the Whitetail with the gapping hole..............was just plain nasty. So I would guess that a 85gr TSX out of a .243 AI at about 3500 would be enough for Antelope or Mule Deer............................I mention this because I have had Two experianced Hunters tell me that the .243 is NOT an Antelope or a Deer cartridge.................And that is the bullet I intend on using this fall out of my .243 AI...............

 

[bigngreen]

This is what Barnes are good for:

222rem 53TSX at 3200fps@ muzz

I had to shoot through a lot of heavy bone to stop this one under the skin

That's about the same kind of hole a 60gr Berger will blow through a deer or antelope but with much less blood shot. We took three animals last year out to 506yrds with the 60gr Berger out of a 22-250, small test sample but we liked what we saw enough to change over.

 

[Roughwater]

Gregg,

Many old school hunters don't think a 243 AI or 243 win is sufficient to hunt deer. Some would not think of even using a 110 gn 270 bullet to hunt deer either. However, others have realized that with good shot placement it doesn't take a cannon or the heaviest bullet per caliber to properly kill a deer at short and medium range. I belong to a local wildlife club and one of the gentlemen in the club is the local school's shooting team instructor and he switched to a 243 for his go to deer hunting rifle for several reasons. Many younger huters and women are given a 243 as their first deer rifle due to it's softer recoil, excellent accuracy and capable killing power. This is especially true when using the right bullet at the right distance. In the area where I live most deer are shot at less than 200 yrds and the deer here are nearly always under 200 lbs, most being under 150 lbs.

Now, with this website being called "Long Range hunting" and not called under 300 yrd hunting, I could see why a true long range shooter/hunter might not feel that a 243 is sufficient. The heavier bullets from a larger caliber will carry farther downrange with more accuracy and energy and be less affected by the wind. But under 300 yrs and maybe with the 243 AI with it's higher velocity you can stretch that distance some, a 80-85 gn Barnes bullet will hold together and cause massive internal damage to a deer and nearly always penetrate the animal through bone or whatever. I mention 80gn here as the Barnes TTSX is 80 Gn and the TSX is 85. I prefer the TTSX as I belive they carry slightly better at range and open up a bit better. But then again they cost more. One downside with Barnes bullets, you get more copper fowling so I recommend a good copper solvent and use a 1 caliber oversize bore brush.
As to fowling, you might also checkout the use of boron nitride coating on your bullets whatever type you use as it seems to reduce fowling and doesn't have any negative side effects. Boron Nitride Sources and Application Procedures « Daily Bulletin

Terry

 

[Greg Duerr]

Terry

Thanks for the feed back...................Great informtion that I have not heard of before.
Both hunters I talked to are not long range hunters, 300 yards being their max shooting distance. One of the hunters I have know for over 30 years was very agitated over my choice of a Deer, Antelope Rifle in the .243...............I disagreed with him stating that if I used a well constructed bullet like the Barnes or the Swift Scirooco and took my time to put that bullet in the right place that NO antelope or Mule Deer out to 300 yards would walk away. The cost of my opinion and standing my ground only got me an invitation to leave his home..............Some people have very strong opinions.
Have you ever used the 90gr Swift bullet? I have also considered trying the Berger 87 or 95gr VLD's................My rifle wont be back from the Smith until about the end of July......So right now Im gathering as much information as I can..............Thanks for you feed back.

Greg

 

[Roughwater]

Greg,

I've been reloading the 243 (6mm) 95gn Berger for my Grandson's 1 in 10 twist rifle and getting decent groups but now that that they are offering the 87gn I'm going to switch to those as they were made specifically for a 1 in 10" twist barrel and should shoot even more accurately with less tweeking. If your rifle has a faster twist such as 1 in 9 you might want to go with the 95gn.

I think the Berger bullets have lots of potential and most hunters that have tried them say they shoot more accurately than any other bullet they have used. The company seems to recommend they be seated very close to the lands for best accuracy. The bergers will penetrate 2-3" then fragment loosing most of their weight inside a deer. They don't often completely penetrate a deer like a Barnes bullet from what I have read.
Here are a couple reviews I believe you can trust:

Berger Hunting Bullets 243 Caliber, 6mm (243 Diameter) 87 Grain VLD Hollow Point Boat Tail Box of 100 - MidwayUSA

Terry

 

[Greg Duerr]

Terry

I talked with Berger before ordering my Barrel and in the end I desided on a 1x9 twist. They told me that in order to shoot the 105 VLD I would need to go with a 1x8 Most every bullet company said that a 1x9 would stabalize everything below the 95 gr.
You are right about the Berger's. For years I shot the 30gr Calhoon's in my 22K-Hornet but when I saw that Berger was making a 30gr MEF in a .224 I tried them. Well, all I did was load the Berger's with my basic load I used when shooting the Calhoon's and, yes, they shot a whole lot better. I was getting .527 groups out of my 22K where in the past I was getting about .724 That was a big improvement.
I guess I will try the 95gr VLD's..............
Nevada's tag draw results should be posted some time this week................I applied for Mule Deer and Antelope. If I dont draw then my wife's family live in Northern Idaho north of Salmon................... in some area's you just buy your non-resident tags over the counter that's what they tell me..................

Greg

 

[Roughwater]

Greg,

Sounds like a good choice and not to try to confuse you but I also like the Barnes bullets really well. I know they work. With the Barnes I haven't had to play with the loads to get accurate one's and I like it that I always get a pass thru and good bullet expansion. I believe that bergers may have a slightly better accuracy and longer range potential but I'm just a little concerned with over expansion with the Bergers on heavy game like Elk as pentration is also critical on such a thick and tough animal. So in short I believe either Barnes or Berger bullets would serve you well on deer and smaller size game. Speaking of smaller size game you might want to give the Barnes Varmit grenade a try if you hunt coyotes or other game you don't plan to eat.

Terry

 

[Greg Duerr]

Terry

I have used the 120gr Barnes TSX Tipped in my old 7mm-08 three times and each Mule Deer Buck went right down.....................I kind of wish they made a heavyer X for the .243 like maybe a 100gr, to think of it one in the MRX.............That bullet would make me want to hunt Elk with it..............

Keep in touch, I will need your input when my Rifle arrives

Greg [email protected]