zog
Well-Known Member
Powerpoint - took me about 5 hours total using Swaro's apps on their website for the data and using a scale on my computer screen to move the numbers to where they belong.
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Ballistic Turret vs Hold Over Lines
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zog
Well-Known Member
So I said in an earlier post about ten days ago that I planned to go with a Z5 and use both hold over and BT. This Z5 is obviously designed to work best at full zoom, which is too much power for me to hunt with in most situations.
I was going to memorize my hold-overs for two zooms - 18x (full) and 10x, for when 18x was too shaky. Well I made these cheat cards at each zoom and now I know it's just not going to work. 18x is going to be too much for many situations, but when I zoom out to 10x, everything will be too crowded. Under hunting pressure I'm certain to mess something up. It was bad enough at the range.
After going through this at the range , now I'm purty sure I want to dump the Z5 idea and go to a front focal plane scope for anything over 10x. That way I can zoom out to 8x,9x,10x, etc and still know my memorized holds.
I was going to memorize my hold-overs for two zooms - 18x (full) and 10x, for when 18x was too shaky. Well I made these cheat cards at each zoom and now I know it's just not going to work. 18x is going to be too much for many situations, but when I zoom out to 10x, everything will be too crowded. Under hunting pressure I'm certain to mess something up. It was bad enough at the range.
After going through this at the range , now I'm purty sure I want to dump the Z5 idea and go to a front focal plane scope for anything over 10x. That way I can zoom out to 8x,9x,10x, etc and still know my memorized holds.
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308stillbrass
SCAMMER
I like a Leupy with the B&C reticle for hunting, because I get excited in the presence of game. This means I don't trust myself to be able to count clicks, or remember how many clicks to count etc. if the game appears nervous as if about to move into cover.
To me the opposite, all the more reason to use the turret. When we are training guys on rapid target engagement and moving targets they use the reticle for either elevation or wind holds or both. This is fast shooting and they have to make split decision calls...there are A LOT of errors that cause misses. You don't know how many times I hear "I used the wrong line!", easy to get away from you under pressure. I will admit to seeing guys screw up turning a turret, but it's more a rarity and part of the spotter's job to ensure the dope on the scope is correct. Two sets of eyes as a double check. Can't see what the shooter is doing with a reticle hold.
Besides, if you are having to count clicks there's something off with your technique. There be numbers on them there turrets for a reason...most all of them at least. I also make myself a BDC turret with duct tape and write yardages on it. Range-turn turret to range-quick wind-send it! Works out to around 600, give or take depending on the circumstances.
Zog,
I think the 10X spacing is backwards. If I am wrong, I am ready to learn something. When I twist my 2.5-15 Z6 from 15X to 10x the stadia spacing gets larger. The stadia are so far apart that it is useless. Perhaps you can explain how your spacing gets smaller?
I think the 10X spacing is backwards. If I am wrong, I am ready to learn something. When I twist my 2.5-15 Z6 from 15X to 10x the stadia spacing gets larger. The stadia are so far apart that it is useless. Perhaps you can explain how your spacing gets smaller?
I generally prefer to dial for all shots. With practice ,as has been stated by others, it tends to be more precise and less prone to error/confusion. I use "Custom Turret Tapes" which include am MOA lower scale, and yardages used for shots to 500 yards on the upper scale for better turret visibility in low light conditions and simplicity. Elevations over 500 yards are precisely dialed in MOA. Given my range of environmental conditions hunted 300-5000Ft/0-75F, my drops to 500 yards are unaffected. For the 500+ yard shots, indexing to the exact the MOA is faster using the yardage markings as reference points. Elevation is generally well understood for me. I want any additional time allocated to my concentration on wind and my target
Custom turret shown on my Cooper/Huskemaw 5x20x50.
Custom turret shown on my Cooper/Huskemaw 5x20x50.
Killed a cow elk last year at 350 using z5 BRH on my 7mm08. Typical scenario the elk (group) was doing the move stop move stop transitioning from the bedding to feeding area on the particular ranch I was on. My brother called the range after lasering it. I definitely got some anxiety trying to count lines....
Also killed an antelope next day at 310 yards....goat was just feeding and very stationary, a much more relaxed situation.
The BRH at 18x works perfectly at 50 yard increments for my 7-08 using 140gr accubonds.
I now dial. However that z5 still sits atop my 7-08 simply because it works so well.
My 2 cents
Also killed an antelope next day at 310 yards....goat was just feeding and very stationary, a much more relaxed situation.
The BRH at 18x works perfectly at 50 yard increments for my 7-08 using 140gr accubonds.
I now dial. However that z5 still sits atop my 7-08 simply because it works so well.
My 2 cents
zog
Well-Known Member
My 10x spacing also gets larger. I think my diagram does the same thing you are talking about. The stadia spacing is larger at 10x, thus the yardage holds are tighter. As you are saying, they are so far apart that they are becoming useless.
See for example the 600 yard hold at 18x is the third line down. At 10x it moves up to the second line down, same as you are saying.
Another way to show the same thing - at 18x, from center down to line 3 is 52" drop = 8.6 MOA. At 10x, center down to line 3 is about 130" drop = 15.5 MOA. So the stadia are representing more distance as you zoom away.
The Swarovski screenshot below is a little blurry but you can see the yardage holds at 18x (upper right) and 10x (lower left). The 10x holds are longer yardage, meaning each stadia represents a larger gap.
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zog
Well-Known Member
The values of the hash lines are only valid at one zoom.
The cartridge stickers and most of the data that Swaro provides with a scope are only good at full zoom. If you go to Swaro's website, you can zoom the ballistic and subtension programs to any power and see what the lines are worth (like my screenshots above).
The problem comes when you are in the field if you have memorized the line values at a certain power (full power for me). Adjust the zoom, and they're no longer valid. That's why I thought I would memorize values at two zooms, 10 and 18, but it's not going to work. Bad idea.
In the case of the Z5 3.6-18, Swaro made the lines at even MRADs (1.0, 2.0, 3.0, etc) when at full 18x power. Change the power, change the values of the lines.
Same for turret clicks. The colored click indicators are only good for yardages at whatever zoom you set them up for. If you set them up for, say, 400, 500, and 600 yds you will most likely do so at full zoom and that's the only power they will be those yardages.
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Rich Coyle
Well-Known Member
zog,
On my z5 5-25X52 BT the clicks were either 1/4" at 100 or 1/4MOA. I don't remember. There's so little difference it would take a bench rest rifle to demonstrate the difference. A 1/4" at 100 yards is 1/2" at 200 and 3/4" at 300 etc. A 1/4 MOA is about 1/4" at 100 yards and about 1/2" at 200 yards and about 3/4" at 300 yards etc. The difference would be measured in thousandths of an inch.
On my z5 5-25X52 BT the clicks were either 1/4" at 100 or 1/4MOA. I don't remember. There's so little difference it would take a bench rest rifle to demonstrate the difference. A 1/4" at 100 yards is 1/2" at 200 and 3/4" at 300 etc. A 1/4 MOA is about 1/4" at 100 yards and about 1/2" at 200 yards and about 3/4" at 300 yards etc. The difference would be measured in thousandths of an inch.
Coyote_Hunter
Well-Known Member
Turrets or stadia? How about both?
There has been some discussion re FFP (first focal plane) and magnification, and possibly SFP (second focal plane) as well – I haven't read all the pages. With FFP the elevation between the stadia lines changes as magnification changes. With SFP it does not.
Most of my scopes have stadia lines for elevation. Inside 400 yards I rarely use them. At 500 and 600 they are still pretty good.
One scope (FFP) has both. A couple years ago I was using it to shoot clay pigeons on the 600-yard berm. When hunting antelope a week later I dialed the magnification down to 4.5x and missed a doe at 50 yards.
For fast shots I find the stadia lines to be much quicker. To be honest, I'm not sure I've actually ever used the turrets on game, although I use them at the range. Two years ago I took an antelope at over 440 yards on the run using stadia lines. My longest shot ever at big game was a cow elk at 487 yards, again using stadia. One shot did it.
I will admit using the stadia lines for clay pigeons on the 600-yard berm is less than ideal, but I do get hits, On a pre-hunt scope check one year I took my .338WM and a .30-06. On the 3rd shot with the .338 I hit a pigeon using stadia lines and interpolating. With the .30-06 I hit with the second sht. And with that I quit and went elk hunting.
I agree with others who have stated that if the range is long enough to use the turrets, you probably have well more than enough time.
There has been some discussion re FFP (first focal plane) and magnification, and possibly SFP (second focal plane) as well – I haven't read all the pages. With FFP the elevation between the stadia lines changes as magnification changes. With SFP it does not.
Most of my scopes have stadia lines for elevation. Inside 400 yards I rarely use them. At 500 and 600 they are still pretty good.
One scope (FFP) has both. A couple years ago I was using it to shoot clay pigeons on the 600-yard berm. When hunting antelope a week later I dialed the magnification down to 4.5x and missed a doe at 50 yards.
For fast shots I find the stadia lines to be much quicker. To be honest, I'm not sure I've actually ever used the turrets on game, although I use them at the range. Two years ago I took an antelope at over 440 yards on the run using stadia lines. My longest shot ever at big game was a cow elk at 487 yards, again using stadia. One shot did it.
I will admit using the stadia lines for clay pigeons on the 600-yard berm is less than ideal, but I do get hits, On a pre-hunt scope check one year I took my .338WM and a .30-06. On the 3rd shot with the .338 I hit a pigeon using stadia lines and interpolating. With the .30-06 I hit with the second sht. And with that I quit and went elk hunting.
I agree with others who have stated that if the range is long enough to use the turrets, you probably have well more than enough time.
Ok Zog, got it.
I guess I had one of those moments. The picture was in a different scale giving the impression the 10X had closer spacing. I should have compared the yardages more carefully.
Didn't realize you could change the magnification on Swarovski's subtension site. Thanks for sharing.
A few years ago, I tried using the stadia with scope on max ( 15X) on a coues wt hunt in low light. While I could see the deer just fine with the 15X Swarovski binos couldn't find the deer in the scope. Could see the deer on 10X but stadia was useless with this flat shooting rifle.
Just changed magnification inputs to see if the stadia is useful on other magnification settings. It isn't with my flat shooting 257. It might be useful with my 338 RCM shooting the 300 gr Berger @ 2450 fps
There is a thought here....if you choose a magnification setting below the max magnification of a Swarovski, is it a true 10x, 12x etc? Lets say you try to use Swarovski's subtension program and input 12X will the scope's 12x actually be a true 12X? It would be easy to verify 1/2 power on a grid but not sure how easy it would be to verify magnifications between 1/2 and full power.
IIRC Leupold used to list their actual magnifications and a 10X full power may actually be 9.5. Just looked on Leupold's site and it appears they removed that detail.
I guess I had one of those moments. The picture was in a different scale giving the impression the 10X had closer spacing. I should have compared the yardages more carefully.
Didn't realize you could change the magnification on Swarovski's subtension site. Thanks for sharing.
A few years ago, I tried using the stadia with scope on max ( 15X) on a coues wt hunt in low light. While I could see the deer just fine with the 15X Swarovski binos couldn't find the deer in the scope. Could see the deer on 10X but stadia was useless with this flat shooting rifle.
Just changed magnification inputs to see if the stadia is useful on other magnification settings. It isn't with my flat shooting 257. It might be useful with my 338 RCM shooting the 300 gr Berger @ 2450 fps
There is a thought here....if you choose a magnification setting below the max magnification of a Swarovski, is it a true 10x, 12x etc? Lets say you try to use Swarovski's subtension program and input 12X will the scope's 12x actually be a true 12X? It would be easy to verify 1/2 power on a grid but not sure how easy it would be to verify magnifications between 1/2 and full power.
IIRC Leupold used to list their actual magnifications and a 10X full power may actually be 9.5. Just looked on Leupold's site and it appears they removed that detail.
