AZ Coues deer-6.5 Creedmore and Hammers

[Creedmoor shooter]

The BC on the 270 pill is .180@ 116g vs .158@ 85g it just seems odd to me

It does seem slightly odd but like I said tge bc difference isn't enough when both are being launched so fast and tge impact is only 450 yards.

 

[Glenn Tullius]

I gave a brief synopsis of performance. First, I practiced at 400 yards, with groups averaging 3" ctc. I shot groups and verified the CDS dial from 200 yds to 400 yards, and it was spot on zero. I shot groups at 200 under .6" ctc. Second, I certainly wasn't shooting off a bench at that buck! It was two packs prone, with with my heart pounding out of my chest! I know there are more "accurate scopes", and yes this scope has a hunting style duplex, but on 12x I was certainly not disadvantaged, I could see and count the points clearly. I did tell my guide to try and limit the opportunity to 400 yards because I don't have anywhere to shoot 500 yards, so should I have passed on him at 430? That thought never ocurred to me!

I did state previously I would use a larger bullet weight, maybe a 129 or 140 plus, I don't know, but my opinion is the Creed is "enough gun" with the right bullet for a thin skinned 120 lb. deer at that range....that's all. I have a 6.5 PRC, would that have made a huge difference at the same range 150-200 fps faster at the muzzle with the same body hits? Possibly so. I have killed a lot of deer over 45 years for sure with everything from a 7mm-08 pistol, slug guns (MN), up to a 338 Win Mag in WI weighing up to 250 lbs. I thought I saw it all, but this was a good learning experience for sure.

I thank you all for the comments! Absolutely no offense taken, I know it was honest remarks from a lot more Long Range Hunting experience than I have. I welcomed the opinions, and I read every single one. That's why I joined this forum! Have a safe great fall!

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

The BC on the 270 pill is .180@ 116g vs .158@ 85g it just seems odd to me

It's the power of the Creed bean

 

[DWier]

Having killed a coues every year but two since the early 80s, I commend you for getting such a nice buck.

When first starting to hunt coues I realized the bigger ones kept their distance. Without rangefinders the only way to connect with them was to use a faster bullet to flatten the trajectory. At the time the only rifle I owned was a 284 win. I chose the, new at the time, original Barnes X 100 gr bullet. Got it to go 3600 fps and it helped. Only problem was it rarely killed the deer but did tend to stop them. When I would catch up to the deer had to finish it off. I eventually moved on to bullets that expanded more to make larger wound cavities. Only legislation would make me go back to a mono bullet.

I have to agree with others, as much as I loved Leupolds I quit using them for big game hunting. I had three break just before or during a coues hunt. Typically an erector would break. IMO Should you ever get a chance to get out West again, where shots are long, you might want to get a more reliable scope before a failure in the field ruins the hunt.

Look at Vortex

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

I gave a brief synopsis of performance. First, I practiced at 400 yards, with groups averaging 3" ctc. I shot groups and verified the CDS dial from 200 yds to 400 yards, and it was spot on zero. I shot groups at 200 under .6" ctc. Second, I certainly wasn't shooting off a bench at that buck! It was two packs prone, with with my heart pounding out of my chest! I know there are more "accurate scopes", and yes this scope has a hunting style duplex, but on 12x I was certainly not disadvantaged, I could see and count the points clearly. I did tell my guide to try and limit the opportunity to 400 yards because I don't have anywhere to shoot 500 yards, so should I have passed on him at 430? That thought never ocurred to me!

I did state previously I would use a larger bullet weight, maybe a 129 or 140 plus, I don't know, but my opinion is the Creed is "enough gun" with the right bullet for a thin skinned 120 lb. deer at that range....that's all. I have a 6.5 PRC, would that have made a huge difference at the same range 150-200 fps faster at the muzzle with the same body hits? Possibly so. I have killed a lot of deer over 45 years for sure with everything from a 7mm-08 pistol, slug guns (MN), up to a 338 Win Mag in WI weighing up to 250 lbs. I thought I saw it all, but this was a good learning experience for sure.

I thank you all for the comments! Absolutely no offense taken, I know it was honest remarks from a lot more Long Range Hunting experience than I have. I welcomed the opinions, and I read every single one. That's why I joined this forum! Have a safe great fall!

The 6.5 creed is plenty for deer at that range.

 

[xsn10s]

I gave a brief synopsis of performance. First, I practiced at 400 yards, with groups averaging 3" ctc. I shot groups and verified the CDS dial from 200 yds to 400 yards, and it was spot on zero. I shot groups at 200 under .6" ctc. Second, I certainly wasn't shooting off a bench at that buck! It was two packs prone, with with my heart pounding out of my chest! I know there are more "accurate scopes", and yes this scope has a hunting style duplex, but on 12x I was certainly not disadvantaged, I could see and count the points clearly. I did tell my guide to try and limit the opportunity to 400 yards because I don't have anywhere to shoot 500 yards, so should I have passed on him at 430? That thought never ocurred to me!

I did state previously I would use a larger bullet weight, maybe a 129 or 140 plus, I don't know, but my opinion is the Creed is "enough gun" with the right bullet for a thin skinned 120 lb. deer at that range....that's all. I have a 6.5 PRC, would that have made a huge difference at the same range 150-200 fps faster at the muzzle with the same body hits? Possibly so. I have killed a lot of deer over 45 years for sure with everything from a 7mm-08 pistol, slug guns (MN), up to a 338 Win Mag in WI weighing up to 250 lbs. I thought I saw it all, but this was a good learning experience for sure.

I thank you all for the comments! Absolutely no offense taken, I know it was honest remarks from a lot more Long Range Hunting experience than I have. I welcomed the opinions, and I read every single one. That's why I joined this forum! Have a safe great fall!

Hmm well I'll say what I have done for maybe 30 years. I practice at farther distances than I will likely shoot at. And I cover all distances inbetween from various positions. I don't train as hard now as before but I'll still shoot in all kinds of different weather conditions and firearm conditions. Because all of this will affect trajectory. With a lower bc bullet wind and other atmospheric conditions will affect trajectory more at distance. I've seen it with some as early as 400 yards. Kinda like a 40 gr bullet in a 22-250. A laser out to 400 yards. After that things can get squirrely.

 

[CONatureBoy]

I gave a brief synopsis of performance. First, I practiced at 400 yards, with groups averaging 3" ctc. I shot groups and verified the CDS dial from 200 yds to 400 yards, and it was spot on zero. I shot groups at 200 under .6" ctc. Second, I certainly wasn't shooting off a bench at that buck! It was two packs prone, with with my heart pounding out of my chest! I know there are more "accurate scopes", and yes this scope has a hunting style duplex, but on 12x I was certainly not disadvantaged, I could see and count the points clearly. I did tell my guide to try and limit the opportunity to 400 yards because I don't have anywhere to shoot 500 yards, so should I have passed on him at 430? That thought never ocurred to me!

I did state previously I would use a larger bullet weight, maybe a 129 or 140 plus, I don't know, but my opinion is the Creed is "enough gun" with the right bullet for a thin skinned 120 lb. deer at that range....that's all. I have a 6.5 PRC, would that have made a huge difference at the same range 150-200 fps faster at the muzzle with the same body hits? Possibly so. I have killed a lot of deer over 45 years for sure with everything from a 7mm-08 pistol, slug guns (MN), up to a 338 Win Mag in WI weighing up to 250 lbs. I thought I saw it all, but this was a good learning experience for sure.

I thank you all for the comments! Absolutely no offense taken, I know it was honest remarks from a lot more Long Range Hunting experience than I have. I welcomed the opinions, and I read every single one. That's why I joined this forum! Have a safe great fall!

It doesn't sound like your difficulty was around accuracy, or the caliber of your rifle per se (or for that matter your evident tracking skill). You bullets just weren't hitting hard enough to bring the animal down where it stood, in spite of your admirable shooting.

As I remarked previously, I started out hunting mule deer in the 90s with a 243 Win, shooting 80-90 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets. Even perfect shots at modest range (200 yards) sometimes resulted in the deer running 50 yards into the pinon-juniper forest, where it would take time to find it. My experience led me to heavier bullets (which at the time, for that rifle, meant getting a 270 that shot 130-150 grain bullets). Perhaps you'll reach a similar conclusion, but maybe in your case hunting a heavier bullet with your 6.5 Creed. You had a great hunt, and probably the only way you could have improved on it would have been to bring the animal down where it stood with your first shot.

Please understand, attack your character. In this context I'm just speaking about whether and when one reasonably expect to harvest a deer quickly. I'm sure you want that as much as any hunter. A lot of variables go into the judgment whether a shot will kill quickly. You had a guide, and in my opinion part of a guide's job is to assess whether to let or encourage their client to take a shot, relying on the client's reports about their shooting abilities. If your guide said shoot, you must have felt you were on solid ground. I'd bet my bottom dollar (I'm ashamed to say) I've lost more animals than you to bad shooting or bad luck. I would wish for you that you learn from my experience, rather than repeating it. As I said, it feels terrible to lose a wounded game animal.

 

[DWier]

It's the power of the Creed bean

Be careful you might convince him to try one. If so, climate change is real because Hell would freeze over!!
We love you anyway Bean.

 

[xsn10s]

The 6.5 creed is plenty for deer at that range.

I agree the 6.5 CM should be enough gun. I think the prone position from a pack, your heart rate, and it being beyond your normal range all played into it. Also did you use a rear bag? When you sighted in was it from the bench? And did you practice shooting prone or other field positions? The first shot shooting high over the back suggests to me maybe no rear bag was used.

 

[JAYgs8163]

I would say res ipsa loquitur: the thing speaks for itself. It didn't sound like he was good to go. It sounded like he tracked a wounded deer for hours, and ethically speaking that's not what you call an ideal harvest. If you hit a deer at about 450 yards several times with the same type of bullet, and end up trailing it for several hours, it sounds like either your aim was off (were you shooting from too far away to shoot accurately with a certain probability? what probability is ethical?), or the bullet didn't do its job (maybe because it isn't going fast enough to expand properly? how much energy is enough to kill quickly and humanely, hence ethically?). I realize there's a perennial debate about retained energy, terminal ballistics, and ethical hunting (see e.g. https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/addressing-the-foot-pound-fallacy/83388). But if this forum isn't the place to discuss what makes for an ethical long-ish shot on a deer, what forum exactly is?

Maybe ask Len since he owns the Forum and they are the rules we abide by.

 

[Hard rock]

I'm sure at 137 yards that load was more than adequate for a deer. My comments refer to the earlier shots taken beyond 400 yards.

Believe me I fully understand different performance from different bullets at different impact velocities reguardless of distance if the velocity's not there on a well constructed bullet it's not going too perform on the other spectrum if too much velocity is there for some above mentioned bullets that's not good either

 

[CONatureBoy]

One more comment, and then I'll shut up. I'm not sure why some 6.5 Creedmoor fans imagine their rifles are fast. A 264 Win Mag (26" barrel, SAAMI COAL) will shoot an 85 grain Berger FBHP in front of 73.1 grains of RL-19 at 3,821 fps. That's close to blistering for an 85-grain 6.5 bullet, and I'm aware there are faster 6.5s still. (26 Nosler, same bullet, RL-22, 26" barrel, SAAMI COAL, 3,945 fps. That's fast.) A muzzle velocity of 3,455 fps for this bullet weight/diameter isn't blistering; it's middle of the pack.

The Creed was designed to be a very accurate, low recoil, long-range target gun with long target bullets. If you want to be proud of it, that's what you have to be proud of: low recoil and great potential long-range accuracy. The 6.5 Creedmoor was not designed to be fast, even with light-for-caliber bullets. And accurate at long range with modest recoil is something that many calibers have demonstrated (in competition) they can do. (See for example https://www.6mmbr.com/1000ydpg02.html.) Some of them do it faster than the Creed.

Once your bullet leaves your rifle, the game animal or target doesn't know what launched the bullet. It only knows where the bullet arrives, and how fast. No one caliber or load has the corner on that market.

The Cult of Creedmoor demonstrates the power of good marketing, not exceptional ballistics.

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

One more comment, and then I'll shut up. I'm not sure why some 6.5 Creedmoor fans imagine their rifles are fast. A 264 Win Mag (26" barrel, SAAMI COAL) will shoot an 85 grain Berger FBHP in front of 73.1 grains of RL-19 at 3,821 fps. That's close to blistering for an 85-grain 6.5 bullet, and I'm aware there are faster 6.5s still. (26 Nosler, same bullet, RL-22, 26" barrel, SAAMI COAL, 3,945 fps. That's fast.) A muzzle velocity of 3,455 fps for this bullet weight/diameter isn't blistering; it's middle of the pack.

The Creed was designed to be a very accurate, low recoil, long-range target gun with long target bullets. If you want to be proud of it, that's what you have to be proud of: low recoil and great potential long-range accuracy. The 6.5 Creedmoor was not designed to be fast, even with light-for-caliber bullets. And accurate at long range with modest recoil is something that many calibers have demonstrated (in competition) they can do. (See for example https://www.6mmbr.com/1000ydpg02.html.) Some of them do it faster than the Creed.

Once your bullet leaves your rifle, the game animal or target doesn't know what launched the bullet. It only knows where the bullet arrives, and how fast. No one caliber or load has the corner on that market.

The Cult of Creedmoor demonstrates the power of good marketing, not exceptional ballistics.

Who's comparing a 6.5 creed to a 264 winmag? Nobody here is. I think the common consensus is that the 6.5 creed is plenty of gun for deer sized game at 450 yards and it was just a bad bullet choice for the occasion.

 

[CONatureBoy]

Who's comparing a 6.5 creed to a 264 winmag? Nobody here is. I think the common consensus is that the 6.5 creed is plenty of gun for deer sized game at 450 yards and it was just a bad bullet choice for the occasion.

I'm responding to the word 'blistering'. In no sense is a 6.5 Creed blistering. Certainly it's enough gun for a deer.

Please folks read my comments carefully. I'm not trying to get anybody's goat. I'm an engineer by training and a professional data scientist, a very data-driven guy. If my post gives you the impression I'm trying to inflame someone, I'm perhaps not communicating effectively. My goal is always to determine fact in the most systematic practical way.

My comment about the Creed is about folks having an almost religious devotion to the caliber, to the point that they begin to think of it as a "blistering" fast caliber. There's no basis in engineering fact for that word choice. It can only reflect a triumph of rifle marketers who lately have latched on to a certain caliber's recent ascendency in 1,000-yard competition and turned it into an empirically unrealistic idea that there's something magic about this caliber. Once upon a time folks spoke in similarly hushed tones about the 7mm Rem. Mag. and Weatherbys.

In my professional world, we deal with the "AI effect." That means when new AI is invented, the general public says, "Ooh, ahh, artificial intelligence!" Once the same AI is a few years old, folks say, "Oh, that's just software." Those of us in the AI trade realize: it's all just software. Many Creed owners say things online that sound like, "Ooh, aah, artificial intelligence!" A few years from now they'll wake up one day and realize yeah, it's just another gun.

Guns are tools, and the folks who use them most effectively become as objective as possible about the nature of their tools. If you want to get reasonably excited about a 6.5 for its muzzle velocity, get a 26 Nosler. If you want to celebrate the Creed, fine, but get excited about its real virtues. Don't let the gun companies pull one over on you.

Are we good?